The XIV encounter recipe in a nutshell

[Sensui]

Changing the boss animation =/= new mechanics.

[Havenchild]

For rng patterns, we already had guardian https://i.imgur.com/LA03wDy.png For counting, we had caloric and pangenesis. For the bait mechs everyone has to do, we had O8s part 2.

We have never had a bait mechanic like witchhunt which simultaneously forces all players to bait while also introducing two mechanics that have to be read (and remembered) on two mediums (color shapes and naming convention) that literally change every single pull at a toss up and change how you position each time (4x variations). The closest we have to that is P5 DSR which is slightly more RNG and Hello World ( but the variation doesn't affect everyone equally) but both of those aren't bait mechs specifically ala your ex, 08s kefka kicks. Only one form of Kefka kicks actually has individual responsibility with some RNG in it, and it only affects 4 players at the same time. The other 4 players have fixed positions.

[Maltothoris]

We have never had a bait mechanic like witchhunt which simultaneously forces all players to bait while also introducing two mechanics that have to be read on two mediums (color shapes and naming convention) that literally change every single pull at a toss up and change how you position each time. The closest we have to that is P5 DSR which is slightly more RNG and Hello World ( but the variation doesn't affect everyone equally) but both of those aren't bait mechs specifically ala your ex, 08s kefka kicks.

The color shapes are actually from Another Mount Rokkan criterion. Which does the same thing

[Supersnow845]

They actually said that the reason they fell into this pattern of mechanics is because people regard them as clean and well done, and that when they tried other things, they'd often be attacked for it and my guess is that the Stayborough first boss is an example of this. It caused them to retreat into "safe mechanics" that they know work.

If square can’t figure out after THIS long why certain mechanics do and don’t work in the current engine then that says more about them than it does the feedback we are offering

Let’s look at 2 “new mechanics” who got completely different reactions

1) strayborough deadwalk- the mobs aren’t actually where they appear on your screen and when they catch you because their hitbox is inconsistent they punish you with 10 seconds of no DPS. New mechanic community didn’t like it

2) queens chess- new and unique movement mechanic built on forced match that made you position yourself on a chess board against 2 other pieces. It works within the system and people moved queen’s mechanical design


Making mechanics that don’t work within 14’s spaghetti code and bad NetCode then using the obvious resultant bad feedback to go back to the same generic 5 mechanics we always have is just an indication of creative bankruptcy. Anyone could see from 10 miles away that the deadwalk boss doesn’t work well with the NetCode

[Havenchild]

The color shapes are actually from Another Mount Rokkan criterion. Which does the same thing

Definitely missing the point, on purpose I assume.
Point to a full party bait mechanic that also is governed by RNG every single pull that has individual responsibility weeded throughout.

[Maltothoris]

It was was the same thing. Two people had to bait the close/far binds while the other two had to bait the moko clones while dodging arms and dodging the second cleave after the first.
Edit: Also random where the arms spawn in being north or sout or east and west.

[Jeeqbit]

Changing the boss animation =/= new mechanics.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new mechanics.

But just changing the animations and using them in new combinations/orders doesn't bother me. That's how it's been for most of the game's existence. I almost struggle to understand how people made it through 10 years of this if they didn't like it.

I think from their perspective, things like out and in AoEs, raid-wides, stacks, spreads, tethers, are just the tools (nuts and bolts) with which to build fights with. Unless you zoom out to see how they are being combined or utilized, you're never gonna appreciate them.

There's also the telegraphing issue. They like to be consistent with them across the game, but this has the effect of making it more obvious a mechanic is being reused.

Again, I'm for new mechanics and their promised new direction, but I just don't have a problem with how it has been, especially in high-end content where they are just using these "nuts and bolts" to build fights that, clearly, still wipe people.

[Reimmi]

I've been raiding in wow the past few tiers and it's a problem over there too, the patchwerk fight, the council fight, the add pad fight, the gimmicky fight nobody likes, etc.
i think raids are just getting outdated. Wow's mythic+ dungeons are miles more fun than any raid encounter.
Would love for ff14 to try something like that instead of the same boring raids

[Valence]

The first boss for The Strayborough Deadwalk expert dungeon had something new and I bet you complained about that.

I did. It is annoying, but I also applaud the attempt, actually, even though it doesn't go in a direction I like, especially the teacup boss.

I'll still keep an eye on the next dungeons, since it's the only place where some timid things have appeared. And i'll cross my fingers that I like it.

It was!

We also did get new mechanics, like knockup mechs that check what direction you're facing, RNG-ish patterns, more continuous KB mechs, counting ‐ hit confirmation mechs, bait mechanics everyone does that have some RNG mixed in..

We can ask for more sure, but let's give them credit where it's due. This tier was not simply stack, spread, aoes, donuts etc

Every tier has always had a couple of new little things give or take. Anabaseios saw web shenanigans in P10, it also had Harrowing Hell, for example. The knockback mechanic in M1 is no different (it's cool though). It's still the same formula. If this is enough to satisfy you all, then I'm happy for you. I'm sorry but this savage tier has been a perfect example of the current formula.

Here's an idea OP, become a game dev, get hired by SE and create this new and exciting mechanic you believe everyone will enjoy unequivocally.

So we're moving the goalposts now? This is not about pointing an incredibly stale formula that keeps and has kept happening even this tier, but this is about making something that everyone will enjoy unequivocally?

Definitely missing the point, on purpose I assume.
Point to a full party bait mechanic that also is governed by RNG every single pull that has individual responsibility weeded throughout.

I think the main reason why both sides are unable to understand each other or talking past each other on this specific issue is that to you, a variation within the same limited lego set is enough to say something is new. To us, it's just more of the same shifted around with a new coat of paint.
But I won't deny that it's also bout expectations and satisfaction. You're obviously satisfied with the current gameplay, we aren't, and are expecting other more radical changes.

[Valence]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new mechanics.

But just changing the animations and using them in new combinations/orders doesn't bother me. That's how it's been for most of the game's existence. I almost struggle to understand how people made it through 10 years of this if they didn't like it.

I reflected long and hard on why I actually went with it for 10 years (9 in my case so far). Which in reality is probably not even half of it because I enjoyed it up to ShB and onward, which, you guessed it, we always go back to. The great shift that shattered the community in two. But the question remains legitimate though, how did I make it through those 4-5 years if I didn't like it?

Well first there is the slowly boiling frog analogy. Water gets hotted and hotter but slow enough that you keep up with it right? Until at some point you notice you're seriously having problems and that's what happened to me in EW and it outright exploded now in DT as a revelation. I may have not been happy with things like job design, the systematic deletion of many other things I enjoyed, but it took time to actually put words over things and exactly nail the causes of dissatisfaction.

And then, there is also sheer stubbornness combined with false promises, either on the dev's side, or on my own side: the little fairy that keeps telling you to hope for changes and bad things to be addressed on a constant basis, and you keep telling yourself that yes, eventually it's gonna get better, but it doesn't, until you realize that what the devs are doing goes against what you personally like, and that it's not about a universally problematic low in design, but an actual disagreement between you and the altered product you're being served. For instance, people complained about the state of job design in EW already, and we were told to eat it and wait for 8.0 when DT wasn't even released yet. 8.0 is in 2 years at best. This is how long things can stretch just because of their rigid development schedule. If anything, some of us complaining here are absolute fans of the game (or have been), to have stuck for so long in spite of it.

With how MMOs can literally occupy a huge part of people's life depending on who you ask, and the amount of personal investment that can go into it, one doesn't just get rid of that attachment in a snap of your fingers, so I do believe that understandably, those things can indeed stretch over a long time. Obviously, I can only talk about my own experience there.

I think from their perspective, things like out and in AoEs, raid-wides, stacks, spreads, tethers, are just the tools (nuts and bolts) with which to build fights with. Unless you zoom out to see how they are being combined or utilized, you're never gonna appreciate them.

There's also the telegraphing issue. They like to be consistent with them across the game, but this has the effect of making it more obvious a mechanic is being reused.

Again, I'm for new mechanics and their promised new direction, but I just don't have a problem with how it has been, especially in high-end content where they are just using these "nuts and bolts" to build fights that, clearly, still wipe people.

The lego set is one thing, but comparing the type of gameplay we're getting nowadays to what we were getting when I started playing, and you'll see the immediate difference. It's not just about encounter lego and bricks, it goes way beyond this. It encompasses the battle system, the game direction and feel, and what as a player you're being asked to do in any fight encounter. But perhaps the crux of the problem is that I'd be satisfied with a relatively unchanging formula if it was HW's formula, yes, and maybe I've been misdirected by Yoshida's promises on new things there.

You'll admit though, that encounters didn't use to be stack, pairs, spread, chariot, dynamo all the time either. They had more unique flavors to them all, and the whole game battle content as a whole has been getting poorer and poorer, more barebones with a single model of boss encounters (trial bosses), a single model of instances, and a single model of mechanics (DDR), with no more model of battle system.