Please don’t rework old content willy nilly

[fulminating]

Now that I’ve had some time to live with the modernised dungeons I think my opinion has cemented itself as broadly negative. The variety of mechanics, even if they kind of sucked on an individual basis, is a part of what made the pre-shadowbringers feel so broad and alive. I mean you can’t even stun or slow half the reworked ones anymore, it’s just sad. I’ve only entered a single reworked dungeon and had any feeling other than apathy, and that’s arf because people initially sucked at the timing on Asian prime. I never expected to be excited, but the feeling of “oh it’s this guy where you do x” or “oh yeah that’s how this one works” is completely lost.

Imagine if electric dog lizard, the second boss of halatali gets reworked. Do you really think it’s going to keep the terrain effect? The kiting and stun for an extra bit of damage? Do you even think the pull chain interaction between bosses will survive? My dumb squadron is more than competent and more than capable of doing it in its current state; the squadron being ffxi style trusts seem vastly more suited to purpose here than ffxiv’s coded to each encounter.

By all means add eg spthssthi as an alternate 21 dungeon starting in east la noscea using jellyfish and fishman as the enemy types and early sastasha tileset, with the process it can’t be that much more work than unpicking decade old rush job code.

Maybe the writing was on the wall with that 10 year anniversary that overlooked the fact 1.0 launched in 2010.

[Destati]

Yeah I don't really agree with them going back to rework the non-MSQ dungeons now. There's a certain charm to those old mechanics that I will sorely miss because they're going to gut the ever loving crap out of them. I'm not sure who's working on what but I feel those resources can be allocated elsewhere that's more worthwhile.

[Aco505]

Agreed. Optional dungeons should not be reworked to fit trusts if it means removing unique elements from them. We only get two optional dungeons per expansion since ShB.

[Nero-Voidstails]

they should focus that work on current expension you know the one people have paid for instead of the older one that have way much more to do then DT

[Valence]

Now that I’ve had some time to live with the modernised dungeons I think my opinion has cemented itself as broadly negative. The variety of mechanics, even if they kind of sucked on an individual basis, is a part of what made the pre-shadowbringers feel so broad and alive. I mean you can’t even stun or slow half the reworked ones anymore, it’s just sad. I’ve only entered a single reworked dungeon and had any feeling other than apathy, and that’s arf because people initially sucked at the timing on Asian prime. I never expected to be excited, but the feeling of “oh it’s this guy where you do x” or “oh yeah that’s how this one works” is completely lost.

Imagine if electric dog lizard, the second boss of halatali gets reworked. Do you really think it’s going to keep the terrain effect? The kiting and stun for an extra bit of damage? Do you even think the pull chain interaction between bosses will survive? My dumb squadron is more than competent and more than capable of doing it in its current state; the squadron being ffxi style trusts seem vastly more suited to purpose here than ffxiv’s coded to each encounter.

By all means add eg spthssthi as an alternate 21 dungeon starting in east la noscea using jellyfish and fishman as the enemy types and early sastasha tileset, with the process it can’t be that much more work than unpicking decade old rush job code.

Maybe the writing was on the wall with that 10 year anniversary that overlooked the fact 1.0 launched in 2010.

Yes they turned everything into the same regurgitated standardized, formulaic mechanics we see in modern expansions. I understand why they did it because their whole battle system and pve model doesn't fit anymore and they want new players to get used to it and have a coherent progression curve, but it's really depressing.

[BabyYoda]

Trust system is ruining how we currently have dungeon design that is simplified so trust system can understand them..

It is really worst move toward making MMO game available for people who hate MMOs .

Yoshi P have to understand this.. people who hates MMOs will hate MMOs.. you can't change that even if you did they will not stick around.. they don't like it they hate it so why we advertise and redesign the game toward these people?

I don't know who are the people that push this dumb idea to the management but they surely don't understand their playerbase and they business

[Jeeqbit]

The variety of mechanics, even if they kind of sucked on an individual basis, is a part of what made the pre-shadowbringers feel so broad and alive.

I agree that the variety of mechanics was good, like how unique Copper Bell mines was.

Nevertheless, it didn't fit with the current design of the game or Duty Support tbh, and to new players, while slightly cool, was also giving them a false impression of the rest of the game and it looked sorta buggy (I mean, ARR was sorta buggy since it was throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks).

I mean you can’t even stun or slow half the reworked ones anymore

It's largely because modern mechanics involve the whole arena and stunning it would mess with the "timeline" of these effects and break everything, while older bosses it was just the boss doing attacks within the arena, so pausing its timeline wasn't so much of an issue, at least from what I can tell. I would just imagine stunning any modern boss would completely break everything. Like, imagine stunning Hephaistos while it's casting High Concept!

people initially sucked at the timing on Asian prime.

I still get it in-progress. It's one of the most frequently abandoned or wiped-to dungeons in the game currently. One of the last times I joined in-progress, they were so happy that I came in with sufficient DPS to beat the DPS check or something like that.

I never expected to be excited, but the feeling of “oh it’s this guy where you do x” or “oh yeah that’s how this one works” is completely lost.

While I feel this concern, to be fair, there are plenty of dungeons they barely touched that I was previously worried about. The bosses before Ascian Prime are technically not different, just a little better telegraphed.

Sohm Al is mostly the same except the second boss and a slight attack difference in the last boss, and much-needed telegraph changes in the first fight (ie. actual stack marker for the stack).

Gubal Library is barely different, all but end of Sohr Khai is the same, Xelphatol is slightly different but not much, Baelsar's Wall is the same, Sirensong is the same, Bardam's is barely different, only change I noticed in Doma Castle is the last boss re-centering so I can't use a positioning trick, Castrum Abania changed second boss because most people (especially sprouts) didn't get it to be fair, Ala Mhigo is the same I think?, Skalla is the same (except mounting to cross gaps), The Burn is barely different, Ghimlyt is the same, rest had NPCs since start but had TB markers added retroactively.

So it seems like ARR dungeons are the ones more at threat because their designs were significantly different to how they are now. If we're being real, these dungeons will get major reworks:

• Halitali
• Wanderer's Palace
• Pharos Sirius second boss
• Copperbell Mines HM (imagine NPCs fighting along that wood platform? *crickets*)
• Stone Vigil HM (especially second boss)
• Sastasha HM second boss
• Haukke Manor HM (because last boss is so bugged due to modern DPS)
• Tam-Tara HM first boss?
• Amdapor Keep (to add walls)
• Amdapor Keep HM (last boss)

The rest will of the side dungeons will at least get major "polish". So they might be the same but just more tidy (as in better pacing) and significantly better telegraphs.

[KillaKilala]

I wanted to share some ideas on how to improve the dungeons. But people are saying that it’s all for the trust and the new players… and now I’m just sad, there’s almost no hope that the devs will change their approach. Yoshi-P says he gets sleepy doing the dungeons. I wonder why… They’ve made boss mechanics harder in DT, but what’s the point when they’re not punishing enough and you can ignore them by taking multiple aoes and still being able to survive? Modern dungeons are so boring because you go there and complete it on an autopilot. No, they’re not even boring, they’re torturing. Having absolutely nothing to do except pressing w and spamming 123 for 15 minutes is a torture. Like what’s the point even going there? If you don’t want us to PLAY the GAME, just let us claim the rewards once per day.

[Jeeqbit]

I wanted to share some ideas on how to improve the dungeons. But people are saying that it’s all for the trust and the new players…

Unfortunately, yes. They made all MSQ dungeons work with NPCs so now they are thinking why not all of them, and it will motivate them to adjust mechanics not only to be new player-friendly (aka obvious) but also to be in line with their current design philosophy, current pacing and telegraphs that are lacking.

there’s almost no hope that the devs will change their approach. Yoshi-P says he gets sleepy doing the dungeons.

You're right and maybe it will make him reconsider the design approach of the sidequest dungeons. After all, they are sidequest dungeons and he's willing to make those a bit rougher like the current expert dungeons which use ideas that feel buggy and wouldn't normally be done, such as NPCs running at you constantly. That sort of idea hasn't been done since the ARR dungeons.

Now that they are willing to use their old design philosophies again to an extent, maybe that is why they want to revisit the old dungeons.

They’ve made boss mechanics harder in DT, but what’s the point when they’re not punishing enough and you can ignore them by taking multiple aoes and still being able to survive?

That's all dungeons, really, since they are not meant to be hard content due to being done for story quests. I'd agree there should be hard versions though. Just a simple damage output buff and HP buff to the bosses and hiding most telegraphs.

Modern dungeons are so boring because you go there and complete it on an autopilot.

I think that's true when you've done them enough times. They might be more fun if there was more variety in Expert roulette itself. But without that, the only way they can solve them becoming "autopilot" is to stop them being so scripted and just have pure RNG fights.

[Alice_Rivers]

Imagine if they gave every "mechanic point" three to five different mechanics to choose from. I think it would be an improvement.