Setting sights on the future of physical ranged DPS

[Carighan]

It's only in the hypothetical scenario if we had a "far" positionals mechanic to show the potential conflict.

But... on enemies with a full ring positionals always count as "hit"? I think I get what you're poking at, but I was thinking that just like flank/rear positionals these would disable on oversized mobs etc.

[CKNovel]

But... on enemies with a full ring positionals always count as "hit"? I think I get what you're poking at, but I was thinking that just like flank/rear positionals these would disable on oversized mobs etc.

Yes, I've added examples encounter where the ring isn't full.
In any cases, you'd see conflict with job mechanics such as Asylum, Cure III, Wheel of Fortune from Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil, I don't think anyone would like to see those abilities getting another range increase.

[Valence]

Not all GCDs would be or should be walking casts. Not even BLM or PCT, the most casteriest of casters have cast times on all their spells. Like for BRD, GCDs like Refulgent Arrow, Resonant Arrow, Apex, and Blast Arrow, Radiant Encore, and its dots should remain instant while Burst Shot becomes a walking cast. They could cut the cooldown of Barrage in half so it could have more instant GCDs every minute for movement, and weaving space. I think lining up instant GCDs for double weaves is kind of an aiming-adjacent playstyle because it is like threading a needle, and does require some finesse, and should be considered in phys ranged design even with walking casts.

You're aware that burst shot by virtue of being the base filler of procs has no control over where it appears? Now you're gonna tell me, then just add swiftcast and triplecast to the job? Oh wait... that's caster gameplay. Else what? I just don't do anything when I need to move and I don't have any procs? Even HW BRD you could turn off Minuet and lost the cast times when required...

[AnimaAnimus]

The actual Bard is a watered down (and by a lot) version of FFXI Bard.
On FFXI you are also starting as an Archer, but when you unlock Bard.... You forget that once upon a time you were a DPS.

What? You didn't start as an archer in ffxi, archer wasn't even a class in ffxi. Ranger was, but that you unlocked at 30 on any class, just like brd. Did you even play xi? Cause the 2 were not connected in any way. And ffxiv brd is not a watered down version of bard from ffxi, they are 2 completely different things outside of name.

[RinaB]

I just don't understand phys ranged. I don't play or main one but whenever j have them in a dungeon, 90% of the time It's a slog on the bosses. Is there an extreme skill ceiling or is their dps just that bad for no reason?

[AnimaAnimus]

I just don't understand phys ranged. I don't play or main one but whenever j have them in a dungeon, 90% of the time It's a slog on the bosses. Is there an extreme skill ceiling or is their dps just that bad for no reason?

They do less dmg than melee because of their mobility and/or utility. Yoshida thinks giving them any higher dps would result in ppl ignoring melee since ranged can have 100% uptime and, in the case of brd and dnc, give dmg buffs. So the reduction on dmg he believes makes up for their mobility and utility. Which makes sense, but imo they take it a bit too far, esp for mcn.

The only time we will see ranged having similar dmg to melee is if one becomes the new dev darling, which is why blm and now pct have such high dps.

[mallleable]

You're aware that burst shot by virtue of being the base filler of procs has no control over where it appears? Now you're gonna tell me, then just add swiftcast and triplecast to the job? Oh wait... that's caster gameplay. Else what? I just don't do anything when I need to move and I don't have any procs? Even HW BRD you could turn off Minuet and lost the cast times when required...

You are right that just slapping a walking cast on Burst Shot without any other changes wouldn't work, and that is where certain compromises would have to be made such as making changes to Hawk's Eye procs to be more available, and flexible to be useful for mobility or for damage. And I don't really see a problem with 'phys ranged Triple Cast' or whatever.' If they really have to distinguish it from Triple Cast, then they can give phys ranged tools that grant a movement speed buff equal to sprint to negate the 'walking' part of a walking cast. BRD also has Repelling Shot, and that instantly gains a ton of value if BRD has positioning considerations, and they could also justify giving it an extra charge or two.

I just don't understand phys ranged. I don't play or main one but whenever j have them in a dungeon, 90% of the time It's a slog on the bosses. Is there an extreme skill ceiling or is their dps just that bad for no reason?

Phys ranged have no positioning requirements to their game play unlike every other job, and role, and that is why they might might be offputting to some players, and why they're damage is kept low. The in game observations I have made in my original post explore potential game play changes to phys ranged which will likely result in increased fire power, and make the role arguably more engaging to play.

[Lorika]

What? You didn't start as an archer in ffxi, archer wasn't even a class in ffxi. Ranger was, but that you unlocked at 30 on any class, just like brd. Did you even play xi? Cause the 2 were not connected in any way. And ffxiv brd is not a watered down version of bard from ffxi, they are 2 completely different things outside of name.

Oo
Maybe i remember wrongly, but i do remember having a bow (and a dagger).... And yeah i played it until 2009 (when i switched for Aion and i still have the cd box if you want).
But i'm 100% sure i was using a bow with Brd (well, using is a big word, i never heard a lot the Battle Musics when i was playing BRD XD)

And it's a Watered down, FFXI Brd was buffing more things (HP/LO regen, physical/magic defense, Elemental resistance) with it's song (i had several macro for using song).
The big difference was alway the fact that FFXIV bard is a DPS then a buffer.... the contrary of FFXI, but the base are quite similar.

BTW, my first job on FFXI was monk, then BRD and RDM.

[Rithy255]

I'd kind of like more proc based Jobs in general (not just physical ranged), Healers could use some, casters, even certain tanks/melees could have some procs. I think it's good to even have one physranged that doesn't have proc based gameplay while two physical ranged heavily focus on it (I want things to actually feel different for each Job not just role type).

But what I do think physical ranged needs is more mechs where their mobility is actually needed (ranged mechs), more "utility in general" and higher damage then current... Give more reasons then "you bring the 1% buff" for physical ranged.

[Carighan]

I'd kind of like more proc based Jobs in general (not just physical ranged), Healers could use some, casters, even certain tanks/melees could have some procs. I think it's good to even have one physranged that doesn't have proc based gameplay while two physical ranged heavily focus on it (I want things to actually feel different for each Job not just role type).

Definitely, although I would say that while Dancer has procs, their procs aren't their central game mechanic. So in the archetypes of MMORPG combat flow design, they're not "proc based". They're "priority based", a combat flow where the central element is that you have 1++ resource that you "overproduce" and often at a semi-unreliable pace, so your goal is to bleed it off not overcapping the resource, while also finding time to fit everything else in. Dancer in fact has this twice, once with feathers and once with the energy. Very nice priority-based job, what with the cycling cooldowns, wanting to use them right as they come up, but also having to react to changes in resource and pre-plan for burst windows accordingly.

I'd definitely want more jobs that use the other combat flow designs though:

* Static rotation (<-- this is where everyone except Dancer is right now)
* Proc based
* Randomized
* Adaptive

My favorite two classes for randomized combat flow (which is not the same as being based on procs!) would be Machinist and Summoner:

* Summoner gets 2+ minor summons for each "slot" (red/yellow/green), and as you are in each major summon, a few seconds before it ends you can see which selection you got. Each color roughly has a function (say red is always slow casts) but they all function slightly different, so you have to react to the random loadout you got and work with that.
* Machinist similarly I would give a "reload" function. On reload, you have a certain ability to influence what kind of ammo you'll load in what order, but mostly its random. Each ability with the gun, no matter whether GCD or oGCD, uses one ammo but the 3-4 types of ammo produce different effects so you might not want to use a certain one with a specific ability, or want to. It's a bit of a match-this-up game, if that makes sense? Say you get the order of 8 bullets, and now you know your ability usage for ammo will be 4 1 1 2 2 3 1 4 or so. Any other one works, too, but matching each bullet produces optimal damage.