Different approach on balancing encounter and jobs

[BabyYoda]

I believe that balancing jobs around rDPS is missing a huge point on how utility makes some jobs viable more than others.. limiting damage for jobs like SMN and RDM is reasonable but why not other jobs that bring more utility to party other than rezz?

Balance Jobs around encounters is making things much harder for devs to create a fun experience for players who enjoy jobs for its identity..

So I suggest balancing encounter around jobs..
it means encounters (boss and mobs) HP and Damage is changing based on current jobs that has been selected in the party..

so how we can do that? simple.. create formula on how much HP worth is this specific utility or damage skill/spell..

let's take for example Damage skill that do 1mil damage for the whole fight so boss should have 1mil extra HP.
Also utility aspect.. let's take for example regen spell with RPR do 100k for the whole fight.. so boss should have 100k extra Damage.

But why? let me summarize the issue first:
- jobs doing same damage and same type of utility = hominization within the role.. tanks as an example have same skills but different variation.. not all jobs should have utility.. not all utility job should do same amount of damage as selfish jobs.
- make some sort of jobs less appealing because they do less than others.. not only in damage but also in utility.. BLM and DRK as an example.
- create unique jobs that have different playstyle than others without being worry about how much damage or utility they.

so how we calculate the run if it is perfect or not?
- calculate how much time it took.. 10min is reasonable less than that is good run.
- damage isn't a factor since HP for encounter changed based on jobs selected.

In one sentence: Balance encounter around Jobs instead of Balance Jobs around encounters

Other things that may occur from this type of change:
- there will always be an optimal rout but this also exist in current design.

What we can achieve from this change?

just let's rethink for a second on what could be possible for next expansions regarding job identity without being worried if X job do 28,000 damage or not.. currently we have 2 tiers of classes and for some jobs 1

what if we extend that with additional 1 tier? Class -> Job -> Profession as a third tier and each expansion we can have new Profession of the job based on functionality.

some jobs have 2 tiers like Summoner and some has 1 like Sage

Profession could serve as a new playstyle with same functionality or with different functionality.. or it could be new role for the job.

for example:
Murderer -> Warrior -> Barbarian.
Thaumaturge -> Black mage -> Void mage.
Dark Knight -> Death Knight.

I know many people love to play tanks that heal and some like tanks to DPS same thing with other roles like DPS with utility or Selfish DPS focusing on big numbers

What do you think? do you think current design is better or this suggestion could be a better version of it?

[Sylvain]

I believe that balancing jobs around rDPS is missing a huge point on how utility makes some jobs viable more than others..

Unfortunately, DPS check is a binary metric, either you have enough or you simply dont. Doesn't matter if you only missed a tiny bit. 0.001% hp left isn't a kill.
Same goes for mitigation overall during a raid burster. Anything that makes raiding "easier" and more "comfy", so utility, is just meaningless if DPS check and mitigation check can't be beated.


There's a reason all caster have addle, melee feint, range -10% AoEmit, and tank 1AoE+debuff mit. This way the "mitigation check" is done.
No matter your party comp, provided it has 1-2 shield healer, 2 tanks, 1 caster 1 range, you can get through any raid burster scenario.

So what is left is the "extra fluff", which by design is "extra" because unneeded (but can be appreciated obviously).
But does it matter really?
If a group of "full utility" can beat the DPS check without breaking a sweat, then "pure dps no utility" job are just less interesting. If they can't, then their utility is irrelevant.

In an environnement where DPS check does matter (so week 1-2 savage + ultimate), the biggest utility anyone can bring is DPS. Everything else is just of lesser importance.

so how we can do that? simple.. create formula on how much HP worth is this specific utility or damage skill/spell..

No we can't, because the utility of a BLM is its bigger rDPS, that's litterally its only utility over RDM and SMN.
If a boss has less hp because you bring a RDM, then BLM is just "a rdm without utility".
BLM is currently not a "RDM without a rez", it's a "RDM without a rezz which deal 10% more dmg".

- damage isn't a factor since HP for encounter changed based on jobs selected.

So then we go from "only dps matter" to "only utility matter".
You didn't solve anything, just moved the problem elsewhere and made any "non utility job" as useless as current "low dps job".




The only solution is this

hominization within the role.

All tank should bring about the same dmg and utility, all healer should bring about the same damage and heal/utility, etc etc.

This is currently kind of the case.
All tank are within a decent margin within each others. Each with their pros and cons.
Paladin has an extra 15% mit with Passage of Arm
Warrior has incredible healing potential
Gun nothing special it feels very "vanilla" to me.
Drk got some decent AA mitigation for what it matters....

So any pair of tank you bring will perform about the same, the notable exception would be PLD with the extra Mitigation.

Same goes for healer "roughly speaking".

Same for range, they're all three within each others "decently enough". And MCH isn't really "pure", it brings an extra mit. Brd brings extra AoE heal and DNC a small heal+shield.

Melee same again, we can argue that Monk is too high or Sam is too low but still, no matter which pair of melee you bring, they're all within each other decently enough.

The issue is the casters.
BLM+PIC are just too far ahead in term of dps over RDM+SMN. They're so far ahead that bringing a pictomancer over a SMN is a bigger gain than bringing the worst 2 melee + range combined.
So they're basically 2 categories of casters.
- High dps caster, no rez
- Low dps caster, with rez.

And since rDPS is the most important utility in any difficult content, most notably the upcoming FRU, depending on the answer to "Can you beat the DPS check smoothly with a RDM/SMN?"
If yes: no reason to bring PIC/BLM. (especially BLM as pic has an AoE shield)
if no : no reason to bring SMN/RDM for extra struggles.

The only solution to that gnawing problem is to harmonize the role with itself:
1- Either remove rez or give it to everyone, or AT THE VERY LEAST, bring some hefty counter balance to remove the "rez taxe".
2- Considering Y.P feedback on "difficulty = dps" as to why BLM should do more dmg, increase SMN difficulty so that no caster has both the "rez taxe" and "rotation taxe".

If all 4 casters have/don't have a rez and SMN does more than 3 cast per minute, then you can easily put all of them within each other in a healthy manner and even if "BLM is on TOP" it doesn't matter because it would be "slightly on top".
As much on top as not having aoe tempura/summoning-heal is worth.

Rez is just too much of an utility (and 95% instant cast for SMN) and in a game where rDPS is king, you cannot simply make them "do less" because it this annoying problem of "too less = can't bring it, can't beat dps check", "not less enough = why bother with BLM?"

Profession could serve as a new playstyle with same functionality or with different functionality.. or it could be new role for the job.

How is that different than a new job tied to the same problem from above?

[BabyYoda]

So then we go from "only dps matter" to "only utility matter".
You didn't solve anything, just moved the problem elsewhere and made any "non utility job" as useless as current "low dps job".

you got it wrong, what I mean we should have both meters,

selecting Utility job = boss damage should be higher.
selecting Damage job = boss health should be higher.

use both as a way to balance encounter.

[Voryn]

selecting Utility job = boss damage should be higher.
selecting Damage job = boss health should be higher.

If this is implemented right then a class's damage output becomes meaningless. If the devs do all the math right, what's the point of picking a class that does higher damage if it gives the boss more health? Either way you're asked to do your rotation at some base level of competency.

I don't expect the devs to do this math perfectly (if they could, we wouldn't have the situation with Picto that we do now). But if it does work, then we're have a similar situation to the devs are trying to have now - that your classes don't matter in terms of DPS output. Then all your solution does is change the boss's outgoing damage and how much mitigation people need to press.

Let's pretend in this new system, Dark Knight does a lot of damage but not much mitigation, and Paladin does less damage but lots of mitigation. If I pick Dark Knight I have to do my rotation properly. If I pick Paladin I have to do my rotation properly and also press lots of mitigation (and if I don't coordinate properly with my healers, this makes some parts of healing harder for them). Paladin basically creates an extra problem for my team unless I can be trusted to play it right.

[BabyYoda]

If this is implemented right then a class's damage output becomes meaningless. If the devs do all the math right, what's the point of picking a class that does higher damage if it gives the boss more health? Either way you're asked to do your rotation at some base level of competency.

I don't expect the devs to do this math perfectly (if they could, we wouldn't have the situation with Picto that we do now). But if it does work, then we're have a similar situation to the devs are trying to have now - that your classes don't matter in terms of DPS output. Then all your solution does is change the boss's outgoing damage and how much mitigation people need to press.

Let's pretend in this new system, Dark Knight does a lot of damage but not much mitigation, and Paladin does less damage but lots of mitigation. If I pick Dark Knight I have to do my rotation properly. If I pick Paladin I have to do my rotation properly and also press lots of mitigation (and if I don't coordinate properly with my healers, this makes some parts of healing harder for them). Paladin basically creates an extra problem for my team unless I can be trusted to play it right.

I agree, there is a situations where this bad, but how does that be worst than what we have now?

it all depends on how the formula is balanced or not, and this will create a culture that you should do 100% of the job that you have, ignoring utility skills will put you in a disadvantage