Out of touch? PLL

[Banriikku]

Is Bozja or Eureka good because of participation? No. Amount of players in content does not equal fun or quality nor if the players want said content. Here is the context of the numbers missing. Also quality does not equal fun. It is often quality content (high production value, good writing, fun mechnic, etc.) that is fun but this does not mean that those things are a necessity to make a game or part of it fun. These numbers are useless because we dont have any idea what measurments, source or even method and so forth is used. Numbers without context are only used to gaslight or even outright lie to people. Example: We have now 10 % green energy.... in a closed environment and not the normal grid, only usable to certain people, not compared to the whole country because that would be less then 1%, not explained why this energy is even green - and with context this number is not so good anymore.

My point is Eureka/Bozja and even Island Sanctuary had rewards only obtainable through said content. So i say Eureka/Bozja was not loved or popular in regards of "we want that mechanic or playstyle" but "yeah FINALLY REWARDS!!!". That's where the problem lies: SE is very, very, very bad at giving rewards and how to structure them. Bozja wothout the relic and with a simple glow weapon on EX level and this content would be DEAD. And that for a good reason or reasons for that all matters. Eureka and Bozja have accessibility problems and difficulty spikes and last but not least a punishment mechanic that is there for the sake of it. There is no "risk and reward" there is simply do not die or get kupo-ed. Thats it. And that is bad game design. Next is repetition because certain things are only obtainable through 1 activity. Then we have obscure conditions for rewards/events without proper rewards. All these things as singular problems are not that big but together we have a very bad situation.

Is Eureka/Bozja a good idea ? Yes, but horrible executed.
SE has no clue about rewards or the structure of it.
Also gating a famous and unique item type behind it and saying "oh look soo many players" is intellectually dishonest and simply untrue.
The only reason we have so high numbers for Eureka and Bozja is this weapon. Take it off and many would not even touch that with a damn pole.
It could be good but SE does nothing with feedback. Same goes for Island Sanctuary - could be good but SE does not care.
At the moment i have the feeling we are at "Mama knows best"-phase and at least they hear our feedback but decide it is not good but we are closing in to Bethesda level of "gamers are dumb, ignore them".

[Supersnow845]

snip

By your logic literally nothing is good

The MSQ sucks I did it to get to endgame

Hildi sucks I did it to get the relic

Savage sucks I did it for gear

Ultimate sucks I did it for the weapon

Maps suck I did it for glam

Roulettes suck I did it for tomes

Fates suck i did it for mounts

In your opinion the structure of the content sucks, that’s not a universal opinion. Saying it was done for its rewards is a pointless statement because you can say that about anything

[Fatch38]

Saying it was done for its rewards is a pointless statement because you can say that about anything

how dare ppl seek for progress in a MMORPG. stop being hypocrite, you know she's telling a truth : when rewards sucks content dies almost instantly, look at criterion for example.

[Banriikku]

@Supersnow845 How did you come to this conclusion? Weird....

SE uses the metric "oh look many players" to say good content but its untrue if you look up what that content contains and how you can get those rewards and how those rewards are viewed. Thats what i said AND EVEN gave a example why context of numbers is so important.
Most of the things you listed have their own problems but mostly through content that is used but not the concept itself. So no "i DID NOT SAY its bad buhu" what is said was "numbers without context are useless and Eureka and Bozja are played because of the weapon and not because that piece of content was loved, popular or of a certain quality".
Please dear lord, dont say, Eureka was good ? This piece of content has so many problems that it would take HOURs to count all of them. I had fun there too but was it good in terms of quality or mechanical fun ? NO. I still had fun but my friends and i created that fun SE did many things to kill said fun but we were stubborn and had fun regardless. Quality does not equal fun. Means it can be bad, really bad but you still have fun. It should be clear now, SE created content with an good idea and bad execution that needed and stilll needs better balancing, rewards and better mechanics. The engagement of the players came from is still comming from the relict and other players.

[Supersnow845]

how dare ppl seek for progress in a MMORPG. stop being hypocrite, you know she's telling a truth : when rewards sucks content dies almost instantly, look at criterion for example.

No she specifically said that field content is designed like trash and is saved by its rewards while otherwise nobody would touch it and acting like that’s just an accepted fact everyone agrees with which is why they constantly tie the relic to the field content.

The idea that field content only survives due to the relic because the content is inherently flawed makes no sense as an argument. How many people would do the MSQ if it was a giant side quest? How many people would do savage if it rewarded near nothing, we can’t know this so applying this as a flaw specifically to field content is just a nothing argument

@Supersnow845 How did you come to this conclusion? Weird....

SE uses the metric "oh look many players" to say good content but its untrue if you look up what that content contains and how you can get those rewards and how those rewards are viewed. Thats what i said AND EVEN gave a example why context of numbers is so important.
Most of the things you listed have their own problems but mostly through content that is used but not the concept itself. So no "i DID NOT SAY its bad buhu" what is said was "numbers without context are useless and Eureka and Bozja are played because of the weapon and not because that piece of content was loved, popular or of a certain quality".
Please dear lord, dont say, Eureka was good ? This piece of content has so many problems that it would take HOURs to count all of them. I had fun there too but was it good in terms of quality or mechanical fun ? NO. I still had fun but my friends and i created that fun SE did many things to kill said fun but we were stubborn and had fun regardless. Quality does not equal fun. Means it can be bad, really bad but you still have fun. It should be clear now, SE created content with an good idea and bad execution that needed and stilll needs better balancing, rewards and better mechanics. The engagement of the players came from is still comming from the relict and other players.

That’s just posting your personal opinion as hard design fact. You have zero idea if people actually by and large liked or disliked the content, in the absence of that retention metrics are the best gauge we have

I personally enjoyed eureka, it’s my favourite content in the game, I like it. I like the rewards and I like the way it’s balanced, presenting opinion as hard fact adds nothing

[CuteBucket]

Is Bozja or Eureka good because of participation? No. Amount of players in content does not equal fun or quality nor if the players want said content.

Gonna stop you right there. What are you talking about? Why would people make themselves miserable participating for hours and hours in content they don't enjoy for a purely optional relic weapon that isn't even BiS until the very end, and which gets immediately outgeared? When I first started Bozja, I was still pretty new to the game and didn't even know relic weapons were part of it, I just enjoyed hopping in with my friends and playing it because I found it fun.

When content sucks and isn't fun, you know what I do?

I don't play it. I'll try it to see how I feel, but I won't keep playing if I don't like it.

Surely that is not some strange, anomalous reaction on my part?

I don't enjoy crafting, so I never did much in the Firmament/Diadem/Ishgard restoration stuff. I tried it and decided I didn't like it, and that was that. I don't particularly enjoy Triple Triad so I don't go out of my way to collect the cards. I have no interest in catching rare fish, or fishing in general, so I don't do it. I eventually level all the jobs over time to give them all a try, but there are some jobs I don't enjoy playing and never bring into endgame content. I found the first Criterion dungeon annoying and not fun, so I don't play them. I will do deep dungeons on occasion if the mood strikes me, but I tend to get frustrated with them easily and then don't touch them for months. Lately I don't much feel like doing my daily roulettes unless a friend wants company, so when I'm alone, I don't bother. Why would I make myself miserable in this game doing content I don't at least somewhat enjoy?

So yeah, I do think amount of players doing content can at least give some idea of how fun and enjoyable the content is. It's not a perfect 1:1 ratio, but it's a metric worth looking at.

[Banriikku]

Is it that hard? Bozja and Eureka are only up in player counts because of the relict. And amount of players do not equal quality, fun or "this is what they want". Yes it is metric for how many player participate but not a quality mark. Eureka or Bozja was played that much because of the relict and the mounts. If Se would release numbers as a whole instead they say hey x% player played this, so it is good. It is bs and stating otherwise is dishonest.

Yes i had fun too and i played the heck out of it and i want more but damn it is and was flawed. Do you loose fun you had to say it was flawed or do you loose memories if you criticize it? Weird but if this is the hill yall wann die on - do it. I think Se should making anoth Eureka/Bozja content BUT please do not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. If you think saying this is taking the fun you had or will have away then you have other problems and those are not FF related.

[Supersnow845]

Is it that hard? Bozja and Eureka are only up in player counts because of the relict. And amount of players do not equal quality, fun or "this is what they want". Yes it is metric for how many player participate but not a quality mark. Eureka or Bozja was played that much because of the relict and the mounts. If Se would release numbers as a whole instead they say hey x% player played this, so it is good. It is bs and stating otherwise is dishonest.

Yes i had fun too and i played the heck out of it and i want more but damn it is and was flawed. Do you loose fun you had to say it was flawed or do you loose memories if you criticize it? Weird but if this is the hill yall wann die on - do it. I think Se should making anoth Eureka/Bozja content BUT please do not repeat the same mistakes over and over again. If you think saying this is taking the fun you had or will have away then you have other problems and those are not FF related.

But that’s the point, YOU think they have flaws, YOU don’t like aspects of their design. This isn’t a universal opinion, there is functionally nothing I would change I would change about either if I was given the design reins

[Banriikku]

Ughhh...... it is. Why do have problems to accept that what you love has its edges here there ? Is it youre personality ? Do earn money through it?

But back to topic:
I think they are far away from the customers. From me who thinks Eureka and Bozja is flawed but fun to you @ Supersnow845 who thinks it is perfect (that is what i took from youre posts about that topic if i am wrong say the word i correct it) to people that hate Eureka and/or Bozja with passion. They make a game for neither of us at the moment and that is concerning.

[Asako]

Yoshi can't win with this community to be fair. He makes something, people cry about it so he makes something new, people cry about it and then he makes something else. He keeps making new stuff and people still cry over it.

A lot of people specifically asked for a harder 24man because the current difficulty is a joke and now he is making it. I really do not see the issue, yet here we have people complaining 'well I never asked for it'. it's a joke at this point.

He had to make the original 24man easier because people cried that it was too hard and he had to nerf previous ones. The man is listening to your feedback and responding and it's still not good enough. He just can't please everyone, especially when everyone is suggesting things that have been done before and the rest of the people are complaining but don't offer good suggestions.

We've already lost Diadem 1.0 because people complained, and it was aguably the best casusal filler content we ever had. The ilvl was set too high on rewards but the rewards were good random Diablo style loot in the form of usuable gear, it solved the gearing issue and gave people something to grind for in their spare time. People however only remember because a weapon that less than 1% of the community ever even seen drop could be the same ilvl as current Savage.

People can say what they want about Bozja but it had without a doubt the best instance with Delub. Some of the greatest Boss designs and combat designs in general went on in there. It is hands down the best 24man content they ever released and is something we need more of. You can also dunk on Bozja and say people only done it for the relics but they did do it. It gave people a reason to play the game. Delub was popping off. People were always about. In EW there wasn't a sinner to be seen anywhere. An MMO where you don't see other players is a joke really. It's not really about the content, it's about giving people something to do together.

This game is not perfect, far from it, but people really need to stop complaining and start coming up with meaningful suggestions before we lose more content.