Why current job design is boring?

[PercibelTheren]

Does job design even remain interesting outside of that initial period as a new player when you're learning how a game's job/class system works and what it tends to offer?

There comes a point when job design starts feeling very boring and mechanical because you know it well. Muscle memory and habit take over from conscience decision.

Rather than try to guess at what might make it more interesting, come up with examples from other games where it already does remain interesting year after year then identify the element that allows their design to remain interesting.

Chances are good it's a normal reaction to how systems work, whether in games or in life. Anything can end up boring once you do it enough.

Chloromancer in RIFT never became boring to me and I mained it for 3 years. Why? Because you had to be incredibly proactive, since most of your healing came from executing your rotation. It's what Sage should have been like, instead of "better Scholar with an automated fairy".

[Shikiseki]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

[BabyYoda]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

more of that current jobs do not feel impactful..

playing as a healer when tanks and dps can have healing..

tank mitigations are copy paste with as little innovation as possible

not only tank but all type of mitigations doesn't feel impactful

Jobs that are specialized in supporting and giving buffs their buffs doesn't feel impactful because there almost all other top chart DPS jobs have a party buff.

if everyone in this earth got 1 gram of gold.. the gold will be cheaper than water.. this is exactly what is happening.

I think later on we will have DPS jobs that can mitigate tank busters

[Raikai]

While the infamous 2min meta killed a lot of my excitement to even touch current pve content, I think the job philosophy as a whole is fundamentally flawed at this point.

We had a lot of "jank" but basic RPG elements removed over the years like a heavy effect on stone, shadow flare which could slow down enemies etc. They do seem superflous at first glance but it's what gave unique flavour to this Final Fantasy game, where the job system always presents battle styles that are unique to the said job. That is why the pvp kits are highly praised imo - meaningful buttons that all feel unique enough that makes every job change feel fresh despite running the same content all over again.

I want those kits to interact with eachother, finding out combo attacks that work especially well in a certain scenario, especially class synergy. I want those blinds, silences, pushbacks, turning enemies into toads, dashing across the battlefield on a speedy job each job to feel unique, useful and fun to play. Noone said it's gonna be easy but they pulled it off in so many of their games, even spinoffs like bravely, octopath and tactics. And yeah there will eventually be an "optimal route" but that's how all RPGs are supposed to be!

Heck this game could have flexed with it's unique system to be all jobs in 1 player by allowing something like picking a sub job to bring into duty you could swith by swapping weapons. Instead they remained stagnant and rigid over 11 years! Forgot how to take risks... to explore... to evolve.

By trying to appeal everyone, they ended up pleasing noone and it's honestly to late to change the systems anymore.

I see the 2min meta with two points, regarding the development team:

1) They truly believe that having very cemented and homogenized jobs makes good gameplay and for them is more interesting to add fancy animations to follow up attacks with just plain potency than actual engaging job mechanics.

2) They fully know how limiting this is, but since the status quo is easy to balance (compared to other games like WoW where the classes are in a constant rollercoaster of balance), they stick with it because if there's one thing they absolutely know how is playing safe.

I hardly believe that an experienced game director like Yoshida would buy the 1) idea, especially because XIV's job design was actually interesting from ARR to Stormblood, which leads me to believe that they're simply resting on safe. I'm not quite hopeful for what they have in store for jobs in 8.0, and I never wanted so much to be wrong. Time will tell, I guess.

[Remember_The_Name]

I hardly believe that an experienced game director like Yoshida would buy the 1) idea, especially because XIV's job design was actually interesting from ARR to Stormblood, which leads me to believe that they're simply resting on safe.

I also believe that they simply went with the safest route to make future changes about the jobs easier (and cheaper). If you turn all of them into a single framework with different animations, balancing them out does indeed becomes easier, but at what cost?

As history shows, some jobs WILL be frowned upon no matter what, even when difference in dps is 2%, even if you can clear content with lowest performing jobs (P8S didn't happen, no no no, don't look here!). Their "perfect balance" idea is simply not achievable and sticking to 2 minutes meta will only further harm the game.

[BabyYoda]

I also believe that they simply went with the safest route to make future changes about the jobs easier (and cheaper). If you turn all of them into a single framework with different animations, balancing them out does indeed becomes easier, but at what cost?

As history shows, some jobs WILL be frowned upon no matter what, even when difference in dps is 2%, even if you can clear content with lowest performing jobs (P8S didn't happen, no no no, don't look here!). Their "perfect balance" idea is simply not achievable and sticking to 2 minutes meta will only further harm the game.

I don't believe it is that hard to balance unstructured job design..

I believe you can create a unique kit.. play it in 1 savage 10 times get the average DPS for 1 min.. 2min.. 5min.. 10min and adjust their potencies in each.
regarding buffs just keep it with 1 job that they can keep buffs consistent.

but why when can just copy paste jobs like WAR and DRK.. it is really horrible

[Grumblecakes]

All of them because picto and viper murder already easy normal content so fast it's even more of a snooze.

[Ramiee]

Or they could just cut the healing and the “I can help a person survive a raidwide” comes from them sharing a mitigation, not a heal

I think a tank/dps healing another player can exist but it must be detrimental to them if it's their role. I it cost gunbreaker a cartridge it could cost a RDM to lose 10-20 of its dark/white magic resource per vercure use.
I think if they can do this it would be the very last resort or a punishment which would also reinforce healers as being the best at healing as they don't sacrifice anything. It would be like a healer being able to tank for a few seconds but it costs the use of their damage or healing, they can do it but it's detrimental to so it.

It should also not be on every job in the role, a PLDs clemency makes sense, nacent flash doesn't. Red mage has white magic so it having the ability to heal (though poorly) makes sense too.
Granted this is all nice for utility but before they do anything like this they need to make healers the objectively best healers in the game and the quickest way to do that is to remove group healing on non healers and limit it to targeted healing and self healing and go from there.