Mitigation types

[Azurarok]

Between defense up and damage down I've been told that the latter may not work on attacks that involve bosses using adds, like Shadowed Messengers in P11S.

[Supersnow845]

Between defense up and damage down I've been told that the latter may not work on attacks that involve bosses using adds, like Shadowed Messengers in P11S.

That is correct, I guess that does count as a point of difference, damage down on the boss only works if the boss actually does an attack, something like the icicles in junction shiva in E12S doesn’t originate from the boss so only defence up works while boss damage down doesn’t

[Azurarok]

That is correct, I guess that does count as a point of difference, damage down on the boss only works if the boss actually does an attack, something like the icicles in junction shiva in E12S doesn’t originate from the boss so only defence up works while boss damage down doesn’t

Meanwhile defense up skills have to care about range so the party actually receives the buff. Or at least had to.
I'm sure Kerachole would've had an advantage over Sacred Soil for mechanics that involve the party to spread back when the latter was smaller.

[Jeeqbit]

Shields can absorb DoT ticks and mitigate percentile attacks (like most of Eden's raid-wides). A powerful enough shield can prevent some effects such as knockbacks or Doom (depends on boss). Crucially, they can be used after the cast is completed for things like DoTs.

Invulns work if used before the cast completes but work after the cast for things like DoT ticks. Invulns are hallowed ground, holm gang, living dead and superbolide.

Raw % mitigation is only useful before the cast completes in most cases, as it snapshots at the end of the cast. Raw mitigation can reduce the potency of DoT ticks as well if used before cast completes, which was super important in the Abyssos raids. This includes Reprisal even though it's more of a damage down on the enemies.

Healing instead of mitigating is valid (ie. Warriors do it with Thrill+Equibilibrium), but only if the lack of mitigation won't cause them to die or nearly die (usually they won't actually die to lack of mit if healed, but there are some exceptions, especially if gear isn't good or not max HP).

In summary, most of the time it doesn't matter which, but understanding these nuances will help a bit.

[Tunda]

Shields can absorb DoT ticks and mitigate percentile attacks (like most of Eden's raid-wides). A powerful enough shield can prevent some effects such as knockbacks or Doom (depends on boss). Crucially, they can be used after the cast is completed for things like DoTs.

Invulns work if used before the cast completes but work after the cast for things like DoT ticks. Invulns are hallowed ground, holm gang, living dead and superbolide.

Raw % mitigation is only useful before the cast completes in most cases, as it snapshots at the end of the cast. Raw mitigation can reduce the potency of DoT ticks as well if used before cast completes, which was super important in the Abyssos raids. This includes Reprisal even though it's more of a damage down on the enemies.

Healing instead of mitigating is valid (ie. Warriors do it with Thrill+Equibilibrium), but only if the lack of mitigation won't cause them to die or nearly die (usually they won't actually die to lack of mit if healed, but there are some exceptions, especially if gear isn't good or not max HP).

In summary, most of the time it doesn't matter which, but understanding these nuances will help a bit.

I mean this is the current problem with job design in FFXIV.. they train you to go autopilot each fight.. they do not give you the choice that let you think before pressing anything.

No we reach to the point where yoshi said: "I don’t want to take a conservative approach"

everything can run in this game with autopilot even savage in some extinct

[PyurBlue]

That used to be a thing when block(and I think parry) didn't work on magic damage, so if a tankbuster was magic you were making things harder by having a PLD. DRK still has a vestige of that in Dark Mind, since part of its identity originally was being the anti-magic tank.

Yeah this was part of the earlier version of the game, but I think the devs had trouble balancing it, especially because encounters in this game can be memorized and solved. When that happens a lack of capability stands out and people tend to avoid it and the class suffering from it.

I agree current design lack of reactiveness.. tactical choices.. when actually to use shield over mitigation? If you are a math bro you can calculate X% mitigation = xxx shield which is not what I would see interesting..

If there is 3 different attack types thta healer and tanks can manage with their mitigations to get 50% extra effectivness over others that would be cool to see

I see what you want now, more meaningful differences between the results of using different mitigation/healing abilities. This can definitely be achieved through tweaking of current mechanics. For example adding more attacks that apply a DoT on initial damage; shields would be much better against them than heals or damage reduction because they would negate the biggest source of damage from the attack.

New attack types could be added with less straightforward damage applications too like a lifesteal attack that absorbs the initial damage done, multiplies it, and then applies it again. Mitigating it would be the best option if damage done to shields counted as part of the multiplied damage.

For the sake of keeping all classes viable, there should also be some uncertainty in the frequency of these attacks. I can see a problem if there was a fight that used the initial damage DoT attack heavily and predictable as it might exclude WHM which cannot easily shield the entire party.

[BabyYoda]

Yeah this was part of the earlier version of the game, but I think the devs had trouble balancing it, especially because encounters in this game can be memorized and solved. When that happens a lack of capability stands out and people tend to avoid it and the class suffering from it.



I see what you want now, more meaningful differences between the results of using different mitigation/healing abilities. This can definitely be achieved through tweaking of current mechanics. For example adding more attacks that apply a DoT on initial damage; shields would be much better against them than heals or damage reduction because they would negate the biggest source of damage from the attack.

New attack types could be added with less straightforward damage applications too like a lifesteal attack that absorbs the initial damage done, multiplies it, and then applies it again. Mitigating it would be the best option if damage done to shields counted as part of the multiplied damage.

For the sake of keeping all classes viable, there should also be some uncertainty in the frequency of these attacks. I can see a problem if there was a fight that used the initial damage DoT attack heavily and predictable as it might exclude WHM which cannot easily shield the entire party.

That's why healer are required..

If for example we boss fight that did Tank buster that is strong against block but it is weak against shields

If Paladin where the tank healers can cast shield to mitigate the TB or it will keep paladin in dangerous state..

In this way we can keep healers vaiable

[Jeeqbit]

If for example we boss fight that did Tank buster that is strong against block but it is weak against shields

In Heavensward, Paladins could only block physical damage with Sheltron so against Alexander the mitigation effectively didn't exist, since you needed the other abilities for some adds later on. The healers just had to be on top of the healing for Paladins or it was a wipe.

And guess what? Healers weren't always able to handle it.

As a Paladin myself I was frustrated that Sheltron wasn't blocking magic. Something that was so obviously needed. Without that, I literally got down to a few hundred HP.

I could imagine healer shields helping, maybe, I wasn't really paying attention to that but the basic job of a tank is to reduce incoming damage so it felt like that should be my role, not the healers'.

Where I agree the healers should play a role is that you need heals before subsequent hits.

[Eyrilona]

There are one or two additional factors at play. E.g. damage debuffing the boss may do the same for you as either buffing your own defense or shielding an equivalent amount of damage, but from the point of view of your party, the boss doing less damage helps your party more if the boss is going to perform any mechanic in the duration of the debuff that could or would affect party members other than yourself.

[BabyYoda]

I feel like different type of attacks can be more effective against specific type of mitigation would solve multiple problems:
When I say multiple attacks means 2 things: Raid-wide attacks, Tank busters.

What I mean by different type of attacks:
1- Attack 1 that countered 100% by Shields and 50% effective on defensives and blocks.
2- Attack 2 that countered 100% by Defensives and 50% effective on shields and blocks.
3- Attack 3 that countered 100% by Blocks and 50% effective on defensives and blocks.

How could this solve tank/healer issue:
1- Tanks will not as op as we see now.. Warrior can't mitigate Attack 1 as how DRK can mitigate it 100%.. team collaboration will be much more important.
2- Healers can finally use their single target mitigation and can be meaningful because if we have WAR and DRK and boss perform Attack 3 it will require healers to use their "block" mitigation to have it full 100% effectiveness.
3- Make tanks more specialized and require team synergy to mitigate attacks.. when I say specialized it is more like DRK have most of their tank utility as shield but also have block but less than PLD for example.

but this require tanks to be more specialized and have to get full rework on mitigation part.