Battle Engagement-suggestion

[Angeldust]

Okay So I suggest that the devs change their thought process on the battle completely, this isn't about how difficult or easy the fight is but how much of a sleep combat is. A debuff that increases how much damage you take feels like an easy-out lazy option to make people avoid things.

What I would do differently is create a combat that is engaging and encourages players to push themselves into growth more and more. Instead of speeding up the same old mechanics, and depending on a debuff to make players focus on the fight. Designing a combat with purely different ways of fighting is a great fix.

Some fight systems that could make combat more fun

1. The atom
Atom description: the Fight rotates three orbs in different areas of the area -proton-positively charged- neutron -neutron-neutral charge and electron-negative charged. How these work in the fight: these can work in the fight by allowing the boss to selectively power up his or her attack up to a certain number let's say for example 28. The party must gather that many total orbs however gathering more than 10 debuffs you make you do less damage, take more damage, and suffer a random debuff based on the number the boss charged up to.

2. The riddle system
The fight will randomly phase the boss out and lock every player into boxs-space etc each player will be given a different riddle that only they can see in the location. It's random because if you answer correctly you get a duty ability that can buff a party member, or steal a positive buff from the boss. If you answer 3 correctly you get a power attack (aka a lesser personal lb as a duty ability) answer incorrectly 3 times and you are transformed into an inferior creature for 2 minutes

3. The builder/farmer system this system is exactly as you may think.

The environment would either drop parts that can be used to make a weapon or defensive NPC, or even a healing bot that makes things easier on the party. the environment can also create weathered plants this system would be environmentally based if it rains these plants can be grown into aqua- plants these plants randomly cast water attacks against boss or heal the party with rain. If it is a thunder storm it adds an electric-charged plant that players can grow that would paralyze the boss making it randomly be stunned.


these are just some examples of random fight systems you could add to the game making every fight feel different and more engaging without doing the same old same old

edit:

My point being is we can have 100s of systems for fights making them enganging without making it same old same old or hard for people. We can create systems with anything really cooking, minions building, monsters we have to feed etc something as stupid as cooking a cheeseburger can be turned into a fight system creating different ways of fighting.

[Hanayumi]

Uhh... just play a game that does this already rather than change a game that never has and wont ever do this? Never really understood why folks want to change game, sit down and think "ehh FFXIV really ment for me?"

[Akonyl]

This is just fanfic masquerading as a rework, like someone going "XIV's job system needs a rework, so as a suggestion here's my in-depth description of a <job they want in the game>". None of these are particularly new/unique either, and are pretty similar to things xiv's done before.

1) Gathering orbs while managing a counter / not letting it get too high is something they did in the Chrysalis, back in ARR. They're not the exact same thing but this wouldn't be something someone would go "oh, how novel" over
2) Personal mechanics are a thing, though I don't think they were used a ton until recently, but for example the chains in m3s are only visible to the affected player (like the riddle). Otherwise this just sounds like a pass/fail thing like Bardam's, though it depends on the actual form the "riddles" take (which you didn't actually expand on)
3) This one's kind of unique, but fights that require people to go around interacting with things instead of fighting have been done before (a2, a9) and people tend to think it's more annoying than not. I'd be up for seeing more item interaction fights again in the future though.

They could work fine as fights, but none of the descriptions here really sound like they would be meaningfully more interesting than what we've already gotten, which contain a lot of ideas similar to the ones being mentioned here.

[Angeldust]

Uhh... just play a game that does this already rather than change a game that never has and wont ever do this? Never really understood why folks want to change game, sit down and think "ehh FFXIV really ment for me?"

You realize ARR-hw-stormblood did things similar to what i was saying in dungeon fights, before they stoped trying and create repeatable shit that is rehash with just newer graphics and speed up. the point is IT SHOULD BE A GAME and a game requires engangement in battle, not battle and netflix.

are you just going to ignore some of the older dungeons systems that it used. or raid fights with ghost train as an example they are used similar.

This isnt asking for a completely diffrent game style just a different way of combat that encourages people to pay attention and making fighting more fun.

these are just simple boss/combat fight mechnicas they could use to make a fight more enganging instead of being lazy and rehashing the same old, oh if you get hit by x you get a stack, or you look away or else become doom lol why do people be like "oh yoshi and devs try to do new things" No they don't they just rehash the same shit with diffrent colors,graphics and speed


ps my examples were literally just made up in under 4 mins which is just to show the basic idea

This is just fanfic masquerading as a rework, like someone going "XIV's job system needs a rework, so as a suggestion here's my in-depth description of a <job they want in the game>". None of these are particularly new/unique either, and are pretty similar to things xiv's done before.

1) Gathering orbs while managing a counter / not letting it get too high is something they did in the Chrysalis, back in ARR. They're not the exact same thing but this wouldn't be something someone would go "oh, how novel" over
2) Personal mechanics are a thing, though I don't think they were used a ton until recently, but for example the chains in m3s are only visible to the affected player (like the riddle). Otherwise this just sounds like a pass/fail thing like Bardam's, though it depends on the actual form the "riddles" take (which you didn't actually expand on)
3) This one's kind of unique, but fights that require people to go around interacting with things instead of fighting have been done before (a2, a9) and people tend to think it's more annoying than not. I'd be up for seeing more item interaction fights again in the future though.

They could work fine as fights, but none of the descriptions here really sound like they would be meaningfully more interesting than what we've already gotten, which contain a lot of ideas similar to the ones being mentioned here.

People find it annoying only because they dont even want to be playing the game, they want to have something they are doing with their hands while watching netflix,hulu, or amazon prime while dressing up. This is why well this is going to sound cold and mean but typically the majority ARE, STUPID I mean look at the people who watch Twilight, listen to Justin beaver etc typically the silent minority amount of people are always more correct than the majority due to train following, trend-setting and just do not want to be on a game at all they just want something to do while doing something else. I mean at one point the majority believed the world was flat.



Lets just look at the facts not how people view or see things because the truth is people don't matter only the truth matters the facts that all how a person feels or views something is irrelevant


When you enter into a game, you are supposed to feel engaged with that world, the fights the story, and the jobs or classes in them.

However most of the games and most people are like oh ya im just watching Hulu, Netflix or doing this other thing at the same time, that is wrong i'm sorry but it is. If you dont want to feel enganged with a fight or battle in general why the hell are you playing a game when you obviously do not want to game.


The devs have shown since Stormblood ended they don't give a damn about job engagement or how we use the job its their way or the highway on job-fighting, bosses we can skip a mechanic even if we mass dps it, silence it etc Their design philosophy while popular is incorrect.

Now it's not incorrect on the profit side or popularity however it is incorrect for a game. A game doesn't have to be hard (which I agree with) but it does have to be engaging, you should have to pay 100% attention to a fight, or to how you are using your job.



Now lets go into the defenses people use alot when you try to talk about this :" oh you want to have to pay attention to the game go do extremes, or savage/ultimate now to show why this is not only stupid nonsense but horrible for the game.


---------------------------------
we have fates
we have dungeons
we have trails
we have hunts
we have squads
we have deep dungeons
we have blue mage (mostly open world tbh)
we will have beastmaster assuming open world like blue
we have maps.
we have eurkan/relic grinds

eg-harder

----
savage-extreme (current)-ultimate-unreal

----------------------

so lets see about 20-30 things in the game are being told its irrelevent and ignored on combat job design point for 4 things in the game 4 THINGS. This is why its bad to have this thought process that the devs and many players have 2% of the game is being seen as the only relevant part of the game, everything else is turned into a snooze fest.

If this was wow designing around the endgame content for said engangingment makes sense since 80% of wow is that end game content hardly even 12% of wow is just normal-midcore type of content so Yoshi and the devs philosophy makes sense if this game was WOW but its not the vast majority of content is not savage,extreme -ultimate


how i feel and view things also is irrelevant but the numbers, the facts are 100% relevant

[CuteBucket]

People find it annoying only because they dont even want to be playing the game, they want to have something they are doing with their hands while watching netflix,hulu, or amazon prime while dressing up. This is why well this is going to sound cold and mean but typically the majority ARE, STUPID I mean look at the people who watch Twilight, listen to Justin beaver etc typically the silent minority amount of people are always more correct than the majority due to train following, trend-setting and just do not want to be on a game at all they just want something to do while doing something else. I mean at one point the majority believed the world was flat.

So. I think your problems go far beyond battles not being engaging enough. You seem to hold a lot of hostility for your fellow players (and fellow humans in general), which is not good mindset to have if you're playing a social game. People who like to raid and do hard content are not "better" (or worse) that players that like to play dress-up and gpose, and if you could see the statistic of players and their activities, I think you may be surprised at the number of people that do and enjoy both.

There are absolutely toxic casuals out there, but I have never found them to be a majority. It's very rare I encounter someone so hopelessly bad at the game. I can certainly think of a few times it's happened, sure, but they stick out in my mind because they are so unusual. I absolutely believe that the majority of players want more engaging content. Have you seen what happens when someone complains about the game being "too difficult" as it stands? They get ratio'd into oblivion. That is not the majority of players.

[Striker44]

Okay So I suggest that the devs change their thought process on the battle completely

Speaking frankly, I stopped reading right here. And the reason is that anything that just says "go and completely change key things about the game" is both a very questionable design decision and not one likely to be done by veteran developers. Making significant, fundamental changes to a game is a good way to lose your playerbase. If you want ideas to have a better chance of being implemented, look for smaller, incremental changes that keep the current overall feel of the game while nudging it in a new direction. That gives the developers an opportunity to see how people react to that nudging. If they embrace it, you can nudge further. If they openly reject it, it's not worth pursuing. There's actually a thread dedicated to exactly that in GD right now.

[Tunda]

...

Anyone says that you are wrong they are delusional..

These people can't stand 1.0 or ARR clunkiness or even heavensward

this game has been changed drastically since that day you hardly call it the same game anymore.

[NegativeS]

I'm having trouble visualizing what you're describing in the OP, but I do agree that battles need some more engaging mechanics. As it is currently, we're playing DDR with AOE circles and very little else.

[Angeldust]

So. I think your problems go far beyond battles not being engaging enough. You seem to hold a lot of hostility for your fellow players (and fellow humans in general), which is not good mindset to have if you're playing a social game. People who like to raid and do hard content are not "better" (or worse) that players that like to play dress-up and gpose, and if you could see the statistic of players and their activities, I think you may be surprised at the number of people that do and enjoy both.

There are absolutely toxic casuals out there, but I have never found them to be a majority. It's very rare I encounter someone so hopelessly bad at the game. I can certainly think of a few times it's happened, sure, but they stick out in my mind because they are so unusual. I absolutely believe that the majority of players want more engaging content. Have you seen what happens when someone complains about the game being "too difficult" as it stands? They get ratio'd into oblivion. That is not the majority of players.

1. its not about diffuculty its about how enganged/focused you are on the game and combat in general
2. never said i have an issue with it but when people are mostly doing things for a glamor item --_-- instend of enjoying the fight
3. your kind right i do have hate for community but not the people about how it works

let me explain

Old stormblood ast; was great i found it 100% engaging it made me focus and it was ungodly fun however due to mob rule aka majority of community crying oh the range oh booo hoo i keep getting ewer then the devs and yoshi listening to those people stealing old ast game play from those who enjoyed it instend of them having the balls to say you dont like how this job plays then stfu and dont play it thats what i hate.

Idc about the people one way are another but when what can stay and what gets stolen away is up to mob rule aka majority instead of being like "oh so you don't like cheese cake, then get the hell out and go eat a mc donalds instead"


I find how society and communities function as wrong more so when a leader or group of leaders lack the balls to say you don't like it don't use that thing instead of fully changing it for cry babies

Speaking frankly, I stopped reading right here. And the reason is that anything that just says "go and completely change key things about the game" is both a very questionable design decision and not one likely to be done by veteran developers. Making significant, fundamental changes to a game is a good way to lose your playerbase. If you want ideas to have a better chance of being implemented, look for smaller, incremental changes that keep the current overall feel of the game while nudging it in a new direction. That gives the developers an opportunity to see how people react to that nudging. If they embrace it, you can nudge further. If they openly reject it, it's not worth pursuing. There's actually a thread dedicated to exactly that in GD right now.

which is the incorrect way to design a game, if you listen to mob rule instead of keep players enganged, eventually your game falls into the abyss forgettable trash i mean lets look at some of the most memorialable games zelda, mario, diablo 2 hell there many older games and game makers that knew when you had to tell players stfu and deal with it, get over yourself this is a game. the proplem with this is the devs themself not having the balls to tell the mob rule to stfu and deal with it, if you dont want to be enganged in game then dont play it. the difference is THis is A GAME not a second life sim.



there are some things player should have suggestions about thats taken seriouse such as jobs being added, newer skills (not replacements), future outfits but im sorry players should have zero say when it comes to changing a current job etc


I'm not saying this to be mean but when a society or community can take away something due to majority or mob rule its automaticly a trash society/community when the leader or devolper submits like a door mat to mob rule.



Heres an example of what i mean Old summoner ( even i didnt like it since it wasnt a summoner) shouldnt have lost all its dots because of people like me, and if it did the devs should have added a job at the exact same time that was purely ran on dots. The same goes for old ast range add a job purely based on rng, or add one similar to ast that isnt for those who dont like it.

THis "you cant make everyone happy is a bs excuse used by lack of creativity and effort" you can please everyone by keeping both option a and b. If i dont like dots i wouldnt play a job that uses them simple, however if i do enjoy it i will play one with it you dont have to change a certain thing due to cry babys saying boo hoo i dont like it, instead add something similar they will like and tell them just dont play what you dont like

[CuteBucket]

let me explain

Old stormblood ast; was great i found it 100% engaging it made me focus and it was ungodly fun however due to mob rule aka majority of community crying oh the range oh booo hoo i keep getting ewer then the devs and yoshi listening to those people stealing old ast game play from those who enjoyed it instend of them having the balls to say you dont like how this job plays then stfu and dont play it thats what i hate.

Idc about the people one way are another but when what can stay and what gets stolen away is up to mob rule aka majority instead of being like "oh so you don't like cheese cake, then get the hell out and go eat a mc donalds instead"

I really don't think this game's job and encounter design is run by "mob rule" or whatever.

Look at the recent Viper changes. I saw exactly ZERO people asking for that change across any platform I follow for FFXIV. The devs even said that change wasn't really based on player feedback and more something they decided to go through with and do on their end for their own reasons.

I'm not as much of a veteran player as some, but I've still been around long enough to see the HUGE outrage over the changes to Samurai in Endwalker. Hell, I'm still mad about those changes, years later! It was my main and while I still play it casually, I dropped it for high end content and went to tanking instead. I've found ONE player who does high end content AND also likes new SAM better, and even then, they didn't really have a problem with old SAM either. I never saw anyone, anywhere say "we hate Kaiten and Third-Eye please nerf or remove them." Maybe someone did, but it wasn't making the FFXIV news cycle at any rate.

You seem convinced that the devs are heeding the cries of the majority who want all the jobs dumbed down and homogenized. I just don't see that being the case. I hang out in both raider groups and very casual player groups, like people who have never even touched an EX trial. You know what my casual friends say and think about job design? Not much of anything. If a job is too difficult or annoying in their eyes, they just don't play it, and that's that. I've never heard them wish X job was easier or that they'd get rid of Y ability.

I think most of the job changes the devs have made over the years are NOT to favor the players, but to favor themselves and their workload balancing the game. Player feedback is a consideration but not a priority, I don't think. Sometimes your favorite job gets changed and it sucks and you have to pick up another one. Sometimes an old job you never liked gets changed and now it's more your play style than it was before. Such is the nature of any changes to the jobs. You win some, you lose some.