White mage a Mage first, Healer second

[Connor]

and regarding to debuff and buff.. how could this be unique with 2 other jobs have debuff and buff? it is a challenge to me as I see WHM as you ask can be perfect if it is in another FF game or it will be redundant of what we currently have.

The same way Bard and Dancer / Summoner and Red Mage all coexist despite essentially offering the same thing (raid buff / raise / etc). By having the ways in which it’s used, applied and managed vary for each job in a unique way. I.E White Mage having actual support spells while SCH/AST has ability based support. Astrologian could have stronger buffs to compensate for cards rng mechanics (assuming they returned). Scholars buffs could interact with Deployment and/or cost Aetherflow and debuffs could be tied to damage over time. Naturally Sage would continue (or start lol) to be heavily dps-oriented.

Having overlap between jobs within the same role isn’t a bad thing as long as the ways in which they do it is different. I mean, nobody complains about the fact Bard songs and Dancer’s dances do literally the same thing (damage up), because they’re done differently enough to still be distinct (Bard rotates songs, Dancer has step mini game, one is aoe one is single target etc)

[Tunda]

The same way Bard and Dancer / Summoner and Red Mage all coexist despite essentially offering the same thing (raid buff / raise / etc). By having the ways in which it’s used, applied and managed vary for each job in a unique way. I.E White Mage having actual support spells while SCH/AST has ability based support. Astrologian could have stronger buffs to compensate for cards rng mechanics (assuming they returned). Scholars buffs could interact with Deployment and/or cost Aetherflow and debuffs could be tied to damage over time. Naturally Sage would continue (or start lol) to be heavily dps-oriented.

Having overlap between jobs within the same role isn’t a bad thing as long as the ways in which they do it is different. I mean, nobody complains about the fact Bard songs and Dancer’s dances do literally the same thing (damage up), because they’re done differently enough to still be distinct (Bard rotates songs, Dancer has step mini game, one is aoe one is single target etc)

It is how they approach the "support" aspect it what is important.. simply pressing oGCD to have 20s 10% damage increase is not interesting in its own.

I mean look at dancer.. as perfect support with how unique they dance with RNG button rings to give buffs.. but the issue now we have BRD which is like I said press 1 button and give buff.. this isn't unique and it is the same for RDM and Summoner.. as there is no creativity outside of dancer.. even though I don't like DNC kit.. but it is perfect compared to other supports.

As what I believe we should have all options.. healers who heal debuff and healers who heal with damage..
Sage is perfect example of job that heals and damage with no buff and debuff.

if we want unique healers we have to have unique ways to interact with heals
same as if we want unique supports we have to have unique ways to interact with buffs/debuffs.

as my opinion we should have both options.. jobs who more heal/supportive and jobs who more heal/dps

[Carighan]

I mean look at dancer.. as perfect support with how unique they dance with RNG button rings to give buffs.. but the issue now we have BRD which is like I said press 1 button and give buff.. this isn't unique and it is the same for RDM and Summoner.. as there is no creativity outside of dancer.. even though I don't like DNC kit.. but it is perfect compared to other supports.

Yeah, that's true.

Bards really ought to work like Paladins from DAoC or Bards from EQ1, having to constantly "weave" songs, basically spending all their GCDs turning one thing off and the next thing on, and as they have to swap what they're weaving they have to keep track what is where in each weave pattern. (in return, that'd be all they do, their damage is partially in some songs, but also their auto-attacks, they can focus entirely on this song minigame which frankly can be quite complicated as seen in other games)

Summoners OTOH I think is a more complex issue. I like giving them some support, but their central pitfall is how their inherently pretty solid design foundation is never used for anything smart. The major->3x minor cycle is amazing, but it needs... something. I'd retool their minor summons into three types, "Hard hitting and hard-casted", "Medium hitting and instant", "Soft hitting and support/utility centric". Then, when you start the major summon, this refills the minors, and you can see which ones you got for each slot. And they will largely work the same (see the descriptions), but the details differ, and it's fully random which you get. This also makes for a neat system for future x-packs, as they can just pile more "sets" on top. Say hard-casting can either be Ifrit (change DPS output to be top, keeps the gap-closer) or Shiva (3 slow casts to slowly build a huge ice crystal, wind up instant to shatter it and deal massive single+AoE damage). And so on. This could then allow pretty flexible utility stuff on the utility slot for them.

[Tunda]

Yeah, that's true.

Bards really ought to work like Paladins from DAoC or Bards from EQ1, having to constantly "weave" songs, basically spending all their GCDs turning one thing off and the next thing on, and as they have to swap what they're weaving they have to keep track what is where in each weave pattern. (in return, that'd be all they do, their damage is partially in some songs, but also their auto-attacks, they can focus entirely on this song minigame which frankly can be quite complicated as seen in other games)

Summoners OTOH I think is a more complex issue. I like giving them some support, but their central pitfall is how their inherently pretty solid design foundation is never used for anything smart. The major->3x minor cycle is amazing, but it needs... something. I'd retool their minor summons into three types, "Hard hitting and hard-casted", "Medium hitting and instant", "Soft hitting and support/utility centric". Then, when you start the major summon, this refills the minors, and you can see which ones you got for each slot. And they will largely work the same (see the descriptions), but the details differ, and it's fully random which you get. This also makes for a neat system for future x-packs, as they can just pile more "sets" on top. Say hard-casting can either be Ifrit (change DPS output to be top, keeps the gap-closer) or Shiva (3 slow casts to slowly build a huge ice crystal, wind up instant to shatter it and deal massive single+AoE damage). And so on. This could then allow pretty flexible utility stuff on the utility slot for them.

I feel we can have this iteration of bard if we split bard into 2 jobs.. DPS bard and Support bard.. DPS bard same current bard design but replace the support aspect to dps and have another job that dedicated to support with songs which I would prefer they name it bard.

the problem with summoner devs don't want to go crazy with the job design.. as for summoner the job should be the most creative job in the game.. having to summon different Eikons is just an idea that can never end.. but how they can make them unique? this is where creativity is needed.

As for me Summoner Phenix should be the main summon not Bahumet as I imagined the job with Phenix more..

but I was thinking of how we can creative while having Summoner which is support job and also be creative (forget the balance)

Imagine if we just summon phenix and all party get buff "raise from the ashes" which it will raise the first one who died without taking the debuff of dying.. and to make it balance it can be casted 2 times in 1 fight. it is just a cool Idea to have .. or instead of buff it is an extra insta cast oGCD raise without debuff of dying

[CaptainLagbeard]

WHM is most definitely mage first, healer second...

As evidence, I point to how often Glare gets cast in fights over healing spells.

[Carighan]

WHM is most definitely mage first, healer second...

As evidence, I point to how often Glare gets cast in fights over healing spells.

Yeah that's one of my main gripes, less of "role feel" since casters spend their GCDs casting damage and ideally only want to heal via oGCDs.

It ought to be the opposite. Say my Malefic were instant cast oGCD, but with a 2.5s CD, and virtually all healing oGCDs are either instant cast or casted but are GCDs. In return I lose Lightspeed of course, so healing itself on the move becomes super tricky. Now I'd actually have empty GCDs (no biggie, not like anything changes, I'm just spamming Malefic anyways), but as soon as I need to actually heal/protect, I'm spending GCDs on that while my DPS is only the "side gig" I do.

That's how healing ought to be!

[Jidka]

At this point, transform Glare and Dia into oGCD and add one or more other weaker damage dealing oGCD but with an effect to healings. (instant cast, more raw healing power, ...) that way, doing dps would impact healing without adding complexity. (we could still spam Glare and Dia to maximize our DPS)

[Alice_Rivers]

In return I lose Lightspeed of course, so healing itself on the move becomes super tricky.

I don't see why this is necessary. Lightspeed is a mobility tool, not a Presence of Mind equivalent, removing it doesn't make sense especially if all you're doing is making dps oGCD. I use it as much for keeping dps uptime as for healing.

[Tunda]

At this point, transform Glare and Dia into oGCD and add one or more other weaker damage dealing oGCD but with an effect to healings. (instant cast, more raw healing power, ...) that way, doing dps would impact healing without adding complexity. (we could still spam Glare and Dia to maximize our DPS)

Glare and Dia isn't interested to me that's why I ask for removing it and tried to integrate DPS kit of WHM to their healing kit and reducing number of oGCD to keep the job focus on burst healing/shielding

[Carighan]

I don't see why this is necessary. Lightspeed is a mobility tool, not a Presence of Mind equivalent, removing it doesn't make sense especially if all you're doing is making dps oGCD. I use it as much for keeping dps uptime as for healing.

Oh I too remember when it was like that. It was a fair few expansions, but yeah the times of mobility tools being for mobility were nice...