Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Bobby66]

So I was wondering would tanks be okay if say healers did more damage than tanks, and tanks did around the same damage healers do right now so healers are not sidelined in the speed running meta?

I ask because I said overall this would be a messed up nerf, but was wondering if others felt the same.

Edit: I agree adjustments do have to be made but I just don't see what really could be done that really solves the core issue healers have atm which is engagement that does not ripple into lower end content.

Personally I think having such wide access to in combat raises does add to trivialize content at times, and I do think overall tanks do have far too high sustain. Just idk if adjusting that would bolster the healing role per-se or just make it more stressful for many players because that is a sudden responsibility shift that has not been present in the game for a long time.

What suggestions does the tanking community have that could increase the overall enjoy and engagement with healers without impacting tanks that much.

Tanks getting nerfed is not suffering. Nerfs happen all the time. In every game. Throughout all time.

And as you are surely well aware, particular tanks are overtuned for all content. Yes, all content across all difficulty levels. It's beyond a balance problem. It's actually a joke.

And someone also generously provided an example of WoW devs achieving this very thing without destroying the game. They just heard the feedback and agreed and said enough.

Honestly, to achieve healthy balance, the tanks do require a nerf in some aspect.

We can see the trinity as 3 different aspects: Damage, Healing and Mitigation. Healers are proficient in both healing and mitigation, therefore they deal less damage, this is fine and understandable. DPS specialise in dealing damage, therefore they have limited healing and mitigation, this is also understandable. But now we come to tanks, they're proficient in mitigation and they have some healing and damage, therefore if they want to dip further into healing, they have to either give up some damage or mitigation.

That's just the baseline for healthy balance in a trinity game.

If they really don’t want to actually raise the amount of healing needed to clear these fights so that tanks healing is doing the job for the healers why don’t they just as a bandaid flip tank and healer damage profiles

Right now tanks do 30% more damage than healers and as they are melee with zero uptime concerns they have the narrowest IQR’s. Just flip their damage amount with healers so that even if you can do this with 4 tanks and 4 DPS it’s just overall worse DPS than doing it with a standard comp

This clear had 2 deaths and 4 failed mechanics and was still a competitive speed kill because at this point the tank to healer DPS discrepancy is barely smaller than the tank DPS discrepancy

Some views from the thread, what would tanks do to address these concerns, or be willing to give up for the sake of balance.

Edit: Sorry Super forgot to add your suggestion.

[MikoRemi]

No. Make healing more fun instead. Thanks.

[Supersnow845]

No. Make healing more fun instead. Thanks.

Bobby made this thread based on a suggestion I made in the other thread

I suggested this as a bandaid fix to the problem of healerless clears being a damage gain because tanks do so much more damage than healers. Making healing “fun” would only solve this issue if “making healing fun” involved making it so under absolutely no circumstances can the tanks actually replace the healers healing

[Carighan]

Bobby made this thread based on a suggestion I made in the other thread

I suggested this as a bandaid fix to the problem of healerless clears being a damage gain because tanks do so much more damage than healers. Making healing “fun” would only solve this issue if “making healing fun” involved making it so under absolutely no circumstances can the tanks actually replace the healers healing

This would work, in so far that current content always requires tanks due to the outgoing damage onto whoever is tanking being balanced against tank-only defenses.

Likewise, the HP of current content is balanced against the damage output of damage dealing jobs.

However, unlike the above two, the healing requirements of current content are not balanced for the extremely high possible healing output of the healing jobs (if they were to actually spend time on it) and instead balanced to be covered by groups with 0 healers, using DPS and in particular tanks to cover this, due to two of them having very high healing output.

That is indeed a problem, and you're right in that swapping the damage would be an interesting bandaid fix. This would mean Tank+Damage compositions would lack the damage to kill the boss once they have enough tanks to heal the group. While a healer would provide both of those, and hence it'd be more optimal to bring one than not, while DPS and Tanks are still required anyways due to the rest of the fight balance.

[VictorSpoils]

It makes sense thematically. Tanks and DPS are fine in solo content because of their sustain and damage respectively, while healers are worse in both categories. It's also a step in the right direction for what healers want.

You could leave tank damage where it is so they're not shafted and put healers around 30% above them toward DPS levels, but asking them to rebalance the entire game around that is futile when they won't even rebalance old duties to match the current meta.

No. Make healing more fun instead. Thanks.

"Why not both?"

[MikoRemi]

Oh no, healing isn't fun. Let's make tanks less fun as well.
Nah. Good luck though.

[Supersnow845]

Oh no, healing isn't fun. Let's make tanks less fun as well.
Nah. Good luck though.

Okay then let me propose the same question I always propose

How would you suggest fixing healing without negatively affecting tanks because right now half of the tank mains I talk to seem to think being a more effective healer than the healer is a core tenant of tank gameplay

[MikoRemi]

As I've said many times which you've forgotten apparently, I'm no healer main so I wouldn't talk on the subject. I can say for sure that nerfing others which SE aren't fans of doing is counterintuitive since it's just putting the lack of fun on others, not to mention it's an alteration of numbers which is an incredibly lazy suggestion.

Just like Kougan doing an all healer run of ARR, that shouldn't even be taken as a bad sign, that's a pretty cool sign. Let me know when healers are actively not being taken in PF's such as PLD and MNK in Heavensward, actively not taken by the majority of players rather than a very small subset of players who have to carefully plan everything to do healerless clears. I can tell you I don't see many parties doing TOP runs with no healers like I rarely see that being commonplace in any other form of content, most players can't even tie their shoes together let alone do a healerless run.

Since you wanna say you have some authority on the matter of healers which I've seen you post around so much, I'll hope you can find something more creative than some silly bandaid fix which is less a bandaid and more pouring salt on an open wound, because if that's what's constituting as a fix, no wonder SE isn't going to take any of this seriously. Will hope good things come the healers way for something more fun for general content other than Extreme and onward, because seems like unlike the average forum poster, I don't really like ruining peoples fun just to make my gameplay more relevant. Look how well EW posts for WAR's downfall have gotten. I loved reading those when DT came out and will look forward to more.

[All_Nonsense]

How would you suggest fixing healing without negatively affecting tanks because right now half of the tank mains I talk to seem to think being a more effective healer than the healer is a core tenant of tank gameplay

Pay me billions of dollars like FF14 has made and I'll work it right up for you. It's not a problem we should have to solve or suffer for, it's the devs'. Why are we wasting our energy asking the dev's to make tanking unfun to play because healers don't like their roles anymore? Anyone remember the tanking shortage back in the day? It was so bad that there's achievements with MOUNTS attached to tanking high level duties. Far worse than any healer strike. Let's go back to that then. While we're at it, let's remove all utilities from all DPS jobs and make every single job in the game a boring husk so the healers can press cure 2 a couple extra times.

[Supersnow845]

Pay me billions of dollars like FF14 has made and I'll work it right up for you. It's not a problem we should have to solve or suffer for, it's the devs'. Why are we wasting our energy asking the dev's to make tanking unfun to play because healers don't like their roles anymore? Anyone remember the tanking shortage back in the day? It was so bad that there's achievements with MOUNTS attached to tanking high level duties. Far worse than any healer strike. Let's go back to that then. While we're at it, let's remove all utilities from all DPS jobs and make every single job in the game a boring husk so the healers can press cure 2 a couple extra times.

People who think tanks being immortal gods is good for balance and completely hyperbolising what healers want to improve their role

Name a more iconic duo