I'm Frustrated with FFXIV's New Direction

[Jeeqbit]

I don't really care if Wuk Lamat or anyone else dealt the final blow or something like that. It doesn't change the fact we spent about 10 minutes weakening it, or alternatively holding it off.

Was anyone upset that Estinien got the final blow on Nidhogg in The Aery? I wasn't - that was exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't need anymore accolades at that point. Estinien had worked his whole life for that moment.

[Alice_Rivers]

Was anyone upset that Estinien got the final blow on Nidhogg in The Aery? I wasn't - that was exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't need anymore accolades at that point. Estinien had worked his whole life for that moment.

That fight didn't throw it in your face, it was also better before they changed it to remove Estinien from the fight itself because he was actually there, it made sense for him to be there and the plot clearly calls for him to do it. Aery Nidhogg and later Nidhogg trial is fun and satisfying to play. DT's last trial cannot claim the same thing, it has the same thing that E8 does, except where E8 is merely irritating because (again) it makes some sense and the party is actually caught out and incapacitated, DT's last trial forces this upon you out of nowhere simply because the writer's beloved Wuk Lamat is not present. The attack that "incapacitates" the party is nothing new, we went through it two minutes earlier without issue, it's no different this time save for "plot". Wuk Lamat can have her moment in a cutscene after the fight, just like Estinien does, the HW writers knew and understood this.

The worst part of it though? I liked the fight design, I enjoyed the mechanics, they just ruined the whole thing pulling that stupid stunt.

[OdinelStarrei]

I don't really care if Wuk Lamat or anyone else dealt the final blow or something like that. It doesn't change the fact we spent about 10 minutes weakening it, or alternatively holding it off.

Was anyone upset that Estinien got the final blow on Nidhogg in The Aery? I wasn't - that was exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't need anymore accolades at that point. Estinien had worked his whole life for that moment.

This is a bad whataboutism, Jeeqbit. You're better than this.

Estinien taking care of his lifelong nemesis is critical to not only his personal development as a character, but it also is the catalyst for the events of HW at Azys La and 3.3 to even happen. Estinien is a character who is figuratively and literally consumed by vengeance until he is shown a different path by our party during the events leading up to the Aery. Had he still been the same character, I wager he would have been entirely unable to resist Nidhogg's influence whatsoever. Estinien doesn't even kill Nidhogg in the gameplay fight, something he participates in, he kills him in cutscene where he does what Dragoons do. Take the fight into the sky, and brings him down. It's Estinien who takes Nidhogg's eyes, completes the set, and starts turning all the gears for the end of the Dragonsong War. It's BECAUSE Estinien worked his entire life to see Nidhogg laid low that makes this our win as the WoL proving their worth as a ward of Count Fortemps, and for Estinien as the Azure Dragoon, and putting his family to rest feel satisfying outside of bad guy is dead now. Even after he is taken over by Nidhogg and almost kills everyone he has begun to start caring about, he names his spear "Nidhogg" in remembrance, in respect, and in, what I feel, is regret over the actions that caused his madness. Now "Nidhogg" protects Etheirys, like the original Nidhogg was always supposed to. It's many culminations and combinations of Dragon history, Ishgardian history, and personal history that tie that knot. Don't put Wuk Lumat in that kind of legacy, because she hasn't earned it.

You're not using the more relevant example, which is Eden 8 with Ryne and Gaia. Gaia tapping into Ascian powers to warp into the arena makes narrative sense. Gaia wanting to save Ryne makes narrative sense. Gaia proceeded to save our lives makes both narrative, and gameplay sense, as we have been shown both in gameplay through Eden 2 and in cutscenes the extent of her time manipulation powers. It makes thematic sense for Shadowbringers as a whole, that Light, friendship, and determination is not enough, sometimes Darkness is required to save the Light. Even then, Gaia still needs us as players to break the ice, pun intended. But this act alone makes Gaia a hero in her own right, even if she is totally insufferable, even if she doesn't understand all the stakes involved, she still put her life on the line for the party, plus the alternative is a verifiable Flood of Light and that's no good, even she understands that. Putting Hydalaen-Ryne in ice that resembles the Mothercrystal needing to broken by an not-Ascian? Obvious, yes, but thematically appropriate. The key point I'm trying to make here is that it doesn't feel forced and entirely contrived. There was a little build up, at least.

It's not about getting "accolades" or whatever. I don't need any more medals. What Wuk Lumat does is a kill steal, and it's unsatisfying. Wuk Lumat giving me, the Warrior of Light, her personal buff, instead of my personal buff of Brilliant Conviction is a narrative slap in the face. I have never felt inspired by Wuk Lumat once. I've known her for like what, two months max, after dealing with her talking over Krile, dragging me all over Tural, getting kidnapped, and whining to me every time we need to take a mode of transportation? Sphene could have done another Absolute Authority. I don't have a problem really that she breaks out of her science prison or whatever. But maybe, instead, we get a narrative moment in gameplay, where because Sphene says that great "Are you still alive?" line a few extra times in the same tone, overriding the already set in place, and broken, safeguards, and just starts stacking damage ups during the cast. I'm talking Are you still alive? +1 Are you still alive? +3 Are you still alive? +9 Are you still alive? +16 Commencing. BINDS THE PARTY so you can't LB3. THEN Wuk Lumat busts in, Tank LBs herself because we can't, she can even throw out the "I will protect my people's happiness" right back at Sphene to tie that theme together as Queens/Protectors of their people, and she saves the group. Afterwards, she can either fight with us a bit, or get punched out of reality again when Sphene restores critical processes to re-jail her and returns to her original appearance, and in that lapse in strength, she is defeated. Anything but Wuk Lumat doing a Decimate that does more damage than the entire party combined. It's like 10% or something on a single attack on a final boss, come on. I have literally been in instances where the entire party is dead and the tanks+Wuk Lumat kill the boss because Wuk Lumat is so strong and tanks can't die to her suddenly pathetic attacks.

She didn't earn this, and they don't do anything interesting after the moment either, the fight gets substantially worse. Developers literally just gave her god powers for one instance. How is the same jobber who in the previous dungeon could fall over if you didn't heal them as a Warrior be the same character next instance punching a Elder Primal level threat who can travel/terraform dimensions right in the face no problem? Remember when we played as Estinien and we fought Proto-Ultima and his high-tier Dragoon powers actually felt earned? Or when G'raha Tia pulls a clutch summon at the end of Shadowbringers and we were all like "yeah that makes sense, he's been working on this spell for like five years at this point." Outside of doing nothing, which actually would have been better, they choose the most jarring way to bookend this expansion, and it pulled me personally, right out of the experience of an otherwise really good fight.


EDIT: Wait, this tangent is disrespectful of the original topic. Yes, this direction is not great. If someone gives me an appetizer that is trash, I'm not going to hold my breath for the main course. I'd be more likely to hold my nose. You can tell good stories in 3 hours, or 300 hours. I'm no stranger to slow world-building, I live for it, if anything (Trails in the Sky trilogy anyone? That entire first game is just character/world building). This is juvenile. It's like, my time is being wasted on purpose or something.

[PercibelTheren]

I don't really care if Wuk Lamat or anyone else dealt the final blow or something like that. It doesn't change the fact we spent about 10 minutes weakening it, or alternatively holding it off.

Was anyone upset that Estinien got the final blow on Nidhogg in The Aery? I wasn't - that was exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't need anymore accolades at that point. Estinien had worked his whole life for that moment.

With Niddhogg and Estinien, it didn't feel unearned to me. With Wuk Lamat and Sphene, the dynamic felt very "awkward girl convinced popular girl, who doesn't even know who she is, is her best friend." There was no connection between them. Lamat only thought there was one.

[Gaddes]

With Niddhogg and Estinien, it didn't feel unearned to me. With Wuk Lamat and Sphene, the dynamic felt very "awkward girl convinced popular girl, who doesn't even know who she is, is her best friend." There was no connection between them. Lamat only thought there was one.

Yeah, Estinien had the benefit of an entire base Heavensward expansion plus a bit of ARR Dragoon quests to build up that simmering long-term animosity between himself and Nidhogg, so when you finally get to that moment where he can land the killing blow, it's like "all you, pal, this is yours." But with Sphene, we don't even get to meet her until halfway through the expansion, and on top of that there's nowhere near enough time for them to establish a believable connective tissue to Wuk Lamat while we are also suspicious as hell of her at the same time. It just makes it look like Wuk is desperate to make this new leader her friend, when Sphene is really not giving back as much friendliness as Wuk is giving her. Wuk is openly friendly and Sphene has a facade of charm while still holding her cards very close to her chest; these are not the same things, and it makes for a very lopsided "friendship." So when Wuk yells for Sphene and keeps trying to reason with her, I couldn't gel with any of that because you know behind all of that Sphene will vaporize everyone in front of her if it means her people get to live a few days longer.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah, Estinien had the benefit of an entire base Heavensward expansion plus a bit of ARR Dragoon quests to build up that simmering long-term animosity between himself and Nidhogg, so when you finally get to that moment where he can land the killing blow, it's like "all you, pal, this is yours." But with Sphene, we don't even get to meet her until halfway through the expansion, and on top of that there's nowhere near enough time for them to establish a believable connective tissue to Wuk Lamat while we are also suspicious as hell of her at the same time. It just makes it look like Wuk is desperate to make this new leader her friend, when Sphene is really not giving back as much friendliness as Wuk is giving her. Wuk is openly friendly and Sphene has a facade of charm while still holding her cards very close to her chest; these are not the same things, and it makes for a very lopsided "friendship." So when Wuk yells for Sphene and keeps trying to reason with her, I couldn't gel with any of that because you know behind all of that Sphene will vaporize everyone in front of her if it means her people get to live a few days longer.

They intentionally made a scene where sphene refused to tell erenville what happened to cauchia right to his face which was the most blatantly obvious representation that her whole “charming facade” was a crock of shit and then they still wanted us to believe that Sphene and Wuk were forcing some sort of actual bond when they did the final scene

[PercibelTheren]

They intentionally made a scene where sphene refused to tell erenville what happened to cauchia right to his face which was the most blatantly obvious representation that her whole “charming facade” was a crock of shit and then they still wanted us to believe that Sphene and Wuk were forcing some sort of actual bond when they did the final scene

This is a big part of why I found Dawntrail so frustrating. The only way Sphene could have been more obvious would be if she held a giant neon sign saying "I'm this expansion's villain, ask me how".

My ability to suspend my disbelief is pretty strong but I really, REALLY don't like it when the game makes my WoL an idiot. We have been betrayed multiple times. No reasonable person would be this on board with Sphene. Like...you know it's bad when Alisae, of all people, is being the voice of reason.

[CamuiKushi]

Was anyone upset that Estinien got the final blow on Nidhogg in The Aery? I wasn't - that was exactly what I wanted to happen. I didn't need anymore accolades at that point. Estinien had worked his whole life for that moment.

This is an incredibly crucial point that I think the Wuk Lamat defenders keep forgetting: we've been a side character before. This isn't a new thing. Other people have had the limelight and not copped anywhere near as much flak as Wuk Lamat.

It's how she's written that's the problem, not that she's the protagonist of the expansion.

[Daralii]

This is an incredibly crucial point that I think the Wuk Lamat defenders keep forgetting: we've been a side character before. This isn't a new thing. Other people have had the limelight and not copped anywhere near as much flak as Wuk Lamat.

It's how she's written that's the problem, not that she's the protagonist of the expansion.

Our presence didn't feel completely pointless for HW, especially before the Aery got revised and we had to protect Estinien while he used the eye to weaken Nidhogg. It felt pointless for very large swathes of DT, both in story and gameplay.

[ovIm]

This is an incredibly crucial point that I think the Wuk Lamat defenders keep forgetting: we've been a side character before. This isn't a new thing. Other people have had the limelight and not copped anywhere near as much flak as Wuk Lamat.

It's how she's written that's the problem, not that she's the protagonist of the expansion.

In regards to the Queen Eternal fight however, things are a bit different.
During the Aery, we storm it together with Estinien, and are very much on equal footing here. Also, the Aery is a mid expansion leveling dungeon, not the grand final fight.

Before the Queen Eternal fight, Queen Eternal kicks out WL and Krile, stating that we are the most dangerous thing and that we need to be exterminated. Only for us to be overwhelmed and saved by WL? This feels like blatant "Wuk Lamat Mary Sue-ism" by the writers, even accompanied with that dreadful debuff how she is inspiring you, and with WL doing so much more damage than the rest of the party.

Personally, I don't think Wuk Lamat is a bad character overall. She just suffers from the bad writing (like pretty much most of the cast on this expansion) that, in this case, constantly puts her on a pedestal, to the detriment of other characters, that has created a lot of resentment.