Communication around job design and changes

[Talamh]

I will forever miss Shadow Flare, Flash, and how Summoner used to be.
I mourn SMN every day, even though I have adapted.

It just isn't what it used to be, and I loved what it used to be...

It's frankly put insulting that your Squadron have access to Shadow Flare and Flash...


Oh yeah, let's not forget.
Why the HELL did they remove Plunge from Dark Knights?!

[Eraden]

Mao still trying figure out why Devs took EW BLMs whats almost perfects and wrecks it in DT. The ONLY thing Mao can think of as reason, assuming Devs knew what thems doing, is to deliberatesly push BLMs down in order to give leg up to PCTs (job whats most similar to BLMs) so that PCTs gets chosen more for high end contents. Thems wanted precious new job that thems worked so hard to create to be played lots in high end contents. EW BLMs were not some kind of god-state. Difference between Standard vs Non-Standard play was maybe 2%. What EW BLMs playstyle offered was flexibility to react more smoothly to fight mechanics. Devs apparentsly not likings that though.

Now IF is true that Devs NOT knowings what thems doings, then all bets off table. Changes to BLMs, unwanteds by most BLMs players, could be due to just abouts ANYTHING. Is possible that this might be case. After all, Devs restored Ice Paradox and bumped Umbral Soul down to Level 35. Mao has hard time believing that Devs knowings where thems goings with BLMs if thems already revertings some changes. Maybe Devs really is just throwings spaghettis against wall and seeings what sticks.

[Supersnow845]

Mao still trying figure out why Devs took EW BLMs whats almost perfects and wrecks it in DT. The ONLY thing Mao can think of as reason, assuming Devs knew what thems doing, is to deliberatesly push BLMs down in order to give leg up to PCTs (job whats most similar to BLMs) so that PCTs gets chosen more for high end contents. Thems wanted precious new job that thems worked so hard to create to be played lots in high end contents. EW BLMs were not some kind of god-state. Difference between Standard vs Non-Standard play was maybe 2%. What EW BLMs playstyle offered was flexibility to react more smoothly to fight mechanics. Devs apparentsly not likings that though.

Now IF is true that Devs NOT knowings what thems doings, then all bets off table. Changes to BLMs, unwanteds by most BLMs players, could be due to just abouts ANYTHING. Is possible that this might be case. After all, Devs restored Ice Paradox and bumped Umbral Soul down to Level 35. Mao has hard time believing that Devs knowings where thems goings with BLMs if thems already revertings some changes. Maybe Devs really is just throwings spaghettis against wall and seeings what sticks.

It’s not PCT, it’s the devs hate when players find ways to get more damage out of a job they didn’t explicitly design around

Non standard BLM is an example, WAR smuggling is another, PCT skip magenta is a third

There was also a rather large subset of the BLM playerbase when it was announced what flare star does that were happy with the change because they believe that “playing the job as intended should award maximum damage”

[ovIm]

Why the HELL did they remove Plunge from Dark Knights?!

To make burst phases less busy, really.

You know, they could have just put those gapclosers on the GCD, as an alternative to the ranged attacks, and keep the animation. That way, we would not use gapclosers during burst either since GCD's are super valuable. But honestly, at this point, I don't expect SqEx to come up with actual solutions to issues like that, only bandaid fixes and promises for the next expansion.

[Talamh]

To make burst phases less busy, really.

You know, they could have just put those gapclosers on the GCD, as an alternative to the ranged attacks, and keep the animation. That way, we would not use gapclosers during burst either since GCD's are super valuable. But honestly, at this point, I don't expect SqEx to come up with actual solutions to issues like that, only bandaid fixes and promises for the next expansion.

That's.. such an assenine way of doing it, but now I know why it is so thank you x_x but yeah... REALLY BAD.

[Eraden]

It’s not PCT, it’s the devs hate when players find ways to get more damage out of a job they didn’t explicitly design around

Non standard BLM is an example, WAR smuggling is another, PCT skip magenta is a third

There was also a rather large subset of the BLM playerbase when it was announced what flare star does that were happy with the change because the believes that “playing the job as intended should award maximum damage”

Devs should tread carefully if that the case. Cookie-cutter gameplay can quickly gets stale and borings. This something that experienced dungeon masters learn when runnings D&D campaigns. If force players to has go to places X, Y, and Z in that order and do things usings exactly skills A, B, and C, then players get boreds and claustrophobics very quickly. Is why when Mao ran D&D campaign many years ago, Mao ran things open ended. Players gots to choose where thems go and whats them do. Was much works for Mao buts players really happys.

[Jeeqbit]

They generally mention they're working on a job rework in LLs, at most.

Well they may be too vague, but they do usually mention it in any case if any sort of significant rework is happening mid-expansion, or sometimes even showcase it like I remember them doing with the Ninja changes.

Are you serious? You've seen the state of range physical since 2019?

I am serious. I'm not saying they always do it (like with ranged physical), but in these cases I think it is because they fundamentally disagree with the change. For example, they agreed to buff ranged physical damage once but didn't balance it with the other DPS roles and it seemed like that was because they fundamentally disagreed on that. I'm not sure why, but they really stick to their guns on it and there are going to be times when they don't do what invested players want such as making the game work for new and casual players.

They're not sure about changing something drastically, but they finally decide to go with it even though they know it's gonna cause an uproar and a total loss of trust in the player's side.

That reminds me of something Yoshi-P has said. He has said that if he doesn't fix a problem immediately, then people become used to it and then complain when it gets fixed. He said he learned this when making MP matter in 1.0, I think? There were people upset because they were used to it not mattering.

So what that suggests to me is he knows that changing something people have become used to causes an uproar and that he has to feel it's necessary enough to do it for some reason.

changing the effects of actions? How the heck are we even supposed to give feedback on something like this? It's like they stay so vague on purpose not to start a nuclear war.

True, it wasn't really very specific and could have explained the planned changes in detail.

So you complain about it at expansion release, and then during 2-3 whole years, until they change it next expansion because they do not change jobs within an expansion

True, that has always been a problem and the most memorable to me is bowmage in Heavensward, where they added cast times to Bard and single-handedly wiped out all of the Bard players or made them quit, because being able to run about while attacking was its defining trait that made them like it. And then it took until Stormblood to suddenly fix it after they'd all quit.

Perhaps if they had consulted on something like that first they would have anticipated the reaction.

upcoming job adjustments were talked about in a blog post. And players had a chance to give feedback to what was planned. This was a good thing, overall

community polls

Good suggestions.

[Tunda]

it is as simple as this:

1 year before release:
"Hey WoL What changes do you want to see to DRK?"

6 months before release:
"after taking notes from the community here is the changes that we will be delivering:
1-
2-
3-

Thanks for your support"

6 months is enough to do changes.

it is as simple as that

[remiff]

Regarding job changes, I simply think that the developers' communication is far too vague.
They should provide reports with each major patch, clearly explaining the direction they are considering, how they envision it, and why, while asking for player feedback to see if the direction a job is taking will be well-received.

Especially since they supposedly have some really major changes planned for 8.0, and considering that most jobs saw almost no changes in 7.0,
it would be great if the developers could give us explanations on what they are considering as they evolve a job, to see if the community likes the ideas or not.

This would be better than making blind adjustments that often require a small rework or changes that demand a lot of work.

The devs are far too vague and unclear—even in the patch notes, the explanations are clearly not sufficient. Personally,
I can never be satisfied with a vague explanation like "we're removing the Summoner's resurrection because we think it's a wise choice."

They should provide guidelines and explain the reasoning behind their decisions.
For example, a statement that would satisfy me for any job, though this is just an example: "We are considering adjusting the Summoner's rotation because the current version of the job disrupts the balance between casters.
To address this, we will reduce the number of instant spells and provide new mobility tools to compensate.
We plan to make each demi-summon truly unique and are considering creating an entirely new resource management system," etc.

At least give us some guidelines without necessarily going into detail about how it will work.
This is not a spoiler of spells or anything like that, but guidelines to see if it appeals to players or not.

[Daralii]

To make burst phases less busy, really.

You know, they could have just put those gapclosers on the GCD, as an alternative to the ranged attacks, and keep the animation. That way, we would not use gapclosers during burst either since GCD's are super valuable. But honestly, at this point, I don't expect SqEx to come up with actual solutions to issues like that, only bandaid fixes and promises for the next expansion.

The funny thing is that they made additional changes to make DRK's burst phase less busy, which combined with the removal of Plunge resulted in the job losing 8 actions per Delirium. They shouldn't have pulled the trigger until they had a new oGCD ready and/or added at least one extra charge to Carve and Spit/Abyssal Drain.