Picto makes the game less fun

[Aco505]

Hello! I've decided to log in and comment specifically on false info

I believe that you have not understood what I was trying to write or that I didn't perhaps explain myself well enough. Either way, I'll try to reply to your points as best as possible.

First, nDPS and cDPS do not matter when comparing jobs against other jobs.

nDPS is your DPS not including ANY buffs outside of your own. It's ONLY useful for comparing performance to other players on the same job. Please note, that the current highest nDPS is... VIPER! Followed by... BLACK MAGE! Picto is 5th for nDPS at 95th percentile! So you're blatantly wrong here.

While you're right in the sense that nDPS is usually mostly relevant when comparing performance to other players without taking buffs into account, it can still be a useful metric to understand specific differences between jobs. For example, if we posit that RPR is a job in theory meant to have higher personal damage than other buffing jobs due to having a weaker 3% buff, then ideally its personal damage (nDPS in this case) should be higher than that of a job with a 5% buff such as PCT.

However, since PCT tends to have higher aDPS than RPR, we can then use the nDPS/aDPS comparison to realize that despite having lower personal damage when not taking buffs into account (nDPS), PCT is able to put more potency into buffs, as several fights of the tier at different percentiles attest.

For the sake of completeness, nDPS also equals rDPS for non-buffing jobs such as SAM, VPR or BLM, just like cDPS equals aDPS. The relevance of the differences of each of the four metrics is clearer for jobs that provide buffs than those that don't.

Therefore, it is logical that it's the buffless or "selfish" jobs leading the nDPS charts, as they should. Do note that the sentence of mine that you are quoting explicitly says that PCT is higher than the majority of melees at the different metrics, meaning that it's higher rDPS-wise than all of them but it obviously won't be higher aDPS-wise than SAM, VPR or BLM. In that sense, I do further clarify later on that PCT is right after these jobs in the aDPS charts, meaning that it's above MNK, RPR, DRG and NIN.

cDPS is your rDPS without single target padding. Also useless compared to rDPS and aDPS. It's basically aDPS without single target buffs applied. Because f*** you, Dancer. It does not allow us to draw conclusions for balance or game health.

As explained in their webpage,

"cDPS stands for "Combined DPS" and is measuring how much damage you've done with single target padding removed and adding how much your damage you've given to others with your buffs. [...] cDPS allows you compare how well you and your raid played into burst windows and AOE buffs. It's a good way to look at job balance between each other, and seeing which jobs have strong buffs while also providing good damage during other job's AOE buff windows."

cDPS is basically a "combination" of rDPS and aDPS and does have the ability to help us understand balance between jobs. The main caveat is that all metrics (except nDPS) are affected by party composition and, while cDPS is the one affected the most, so is aDPS.

Like rDPS, cDPS does include the single target buffs from AST and DNC but only in the "rDPS portion" for those two jobs. It is actually aDPS that does not include them for the jobs receiving the buffs.

In essence, cDPS can be useful to analyze overall job balance, particularly if party compositions are similar.

No metric is perfect. Some jobs will favor rDPS while others will favor aDPS. This is why I think that taking them all into account is the best approach when discussing job balance. As imperfect as it can be, this is the data we have to work with because we have no access to SE's internal numbers.

Picto leads in 1 metric that matters, by under a 3 digit rDPS difference, and a less than 3% difference between it and the worst Melee. Far from a balance issue and far from egregious.

I don't believe that using a single fight in a Savage tier comprised of four can paint an overall picture of job balance because different fights may favor one job or another due to different reasons such as difficulty to keep uptime or hold resources for burst.

Regardless, my argument is not that PCT should be nerfed or that it's entirely unbalanced. In fact, in a previous post I conclude that the balance of this tier is mostly fine (besides MCH). My point is that PCT is still quite strong at several areas despite the buffs most other jobs got.

As I already said, we could argue that the differences are small enough not to matter, and that would be just fine, but I still believe that if PCT is to have higher aDPS than jobs with less personal damage such as NIN, then its rDPS should be a bit lower than theirs. I don't think it's healthy for game balance to repeat situations such as SAM in ShB or BLM in the later parts of EW. On the other hand, it could be argued that as long as any job can clear the content, these difference don't matter too much.

BLM can ABSOLUTELY abuse buffs

As for BLM, it still beats PCT in aDPS and nDPS, as it should. The main issue is perhaps the fact that BLM cannot abuse buffs as well as SAM or VPR so its aDPS is lower than it should.

Where does it say that BLM cannot? What I'm saying is that its capacity to abuse buffs is lower than that of SAM and VPR, which may not help the job in the landscape of putting the maximum amount of damage in the 2-minute burst windows, particularly if BLM has to use those resources for movement.

Sure, it gains a lot, but so does anything else that lets their CDs refresh. Because literally every job got a "you can now do this high potency follow up!" for most of their CDs, we'll need to wait to see how FRU shakes out.

PCT is balanced around doing no damage for a specific amount of seconds while casting motifs. Any amount of downtime that reduces this no-damage period during uptime phases will hugely benefit the job. Yes, other jobs can recharge their CDs such as NIN's mudras but those are not balanced around doing zero damage for specific periods like PCT is.

Considering how common downtime tends to be in high end duties, this specific quirk of PCT is quite beneficial to the job because it further increases its damage potential. I do agree that we will know for sure when FRU is released.


In conclusion, I don't think PCT should be nerfed. I do believe it could be adjusted by moving some damage from burst into filler to avoid the potential balance problems in Ultimates or other relevant content when downtime is involved while keeping the overall full uptime damage the same. Additionally, I don't think the job should lose its utility or defensive capabilities either. If anything, what other jobs have should be reevaluated without falling into the homogenization pitfall.

PCT should be balanced within the "more damage group" just like BLM. I don't think we disagree in this particular point. But I still think the job excels in several areas compared to others, as I have already explained.

I will say though that I am here to provide feedback and discuss the state of the game. I have done so in a polite way and I don't think I have been hyperbolic in my posts. If you don't like or disagree with something that I write, I'd appreciate if you returned the gesture and engaged in fruitful discussion instead of coming guns blazing accusing others of being ignorant. If anything, it is your own post that contains misconceptions and hyperbole at times.

Just so that it's clear and we don't waste each other's time, I will refrain from replying again to a post with a similar tone as your first one.

[Lyth]

One of the downsides of trying to condense someone's performance down into a single number is that you lose information in the process. Let me give you an example as illustration:



If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. I'm sure you know this intuitively, even when you look at the max damage on individual attacks like Star Prism or Mog/Madeen. You can land upwards of 200k on a single hit. Xenoglossy pales in comparison to that. The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

As was said earlier, the problem with these two extremes is that you just can't balance them against each other. The extent of PCT's advantage is going to vary based on fight duration, presence of downtime, and whether you end on a two minute window. Crit/DH can produce a large degree of variability in performance as well. I think trying to rebalance these jobs without looking at the damage profiles is meaningless, simply because they are designed so differently. Flat nerfs or buffs in isolation are not a solution, simply because you're going to end up with PCT either being overpowered or underpowered.

I don't think that it's at all acceptable to 'just wait and see what happens in FRU.' The problem that I have with balance decisions in this game is that they're always completely reactionary. Just look at the data that's out there for the more recent legacy Ultimates and it becomes fairly obvious where we're headed with this. You don't need PCT to completely dominate FRU to nerf it into oblivion for 7.2. For once, I'd like to see some proactive design choices where we avoid reactionary balance swings into extremes.

The solution is to directly address PCT's burst profile such that it becomes more compatible with the game design. That may mean utilising more Crit/DH effects to avoid massive damage variance on PCT's biggest attacks. That may mean shifting some of that burst potency off on to the job's base rotation. That may mean putting constraints on motifs such that they always require a target to use, and such that you can't load them up out of combat.

Alternatively, you'd have to revise every other job to have even more of an extreme burst focus within two minute buffs (if you could imagine that to be possible), and let everyone else also charge up their gauge during downtime/out of combat. Probably makes more sense just to rein back PCT's burst a bit, yeah?

On the subject of utility, I think you can pretend that any form of utility is 'optional'. They're all situational in their use, after all. RDM and SMN may never use raise once in a run, but their DPS is still docked significantly simply for having access to it. I think it's only fair for PCT's damage output to reflect its access to a number of very valuable utility effects.

Mao just chiming in here as BLMs.

I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

[Eraden]

I think it comes down to ensuring that every job provides some unique value, at the end of the day. The problem is when you design a job to be just better in all areas, at which point it becomes a direct upgrade. That's fine if you're willing to swap to the most powerful job in a given role, but less so if you're passionate about a particular job aesthetic.

Eventually, you start losing players because there's a community perception 'If you want to play tank, then you play WAR,' or 'If you want to play caster, then you play PCT' and so on. It defeats the point of having lots of jobs. Sometimes the only thing keeping someone from playing a certain role is the fact that the right aesthetic just hasn't been released yet.

To get an idea of the current situation, in the top 50 fastest clears, PCT is represented in 86.5-94.1% of groups, and BLM is represented in only 2.0-7.7% of groups. The next highest represented job after PCT is BRD, with 60-72% representation.

Rebalancing PCT is unavoidable, given the current state of affairs. But I expect to see a 'seesaw' balance between BLM and PCT for the foreseeable future as long as SE only balances with reactionary flat buffs (which is the only thing that they seem to ever do). To avoid that, I would much rather that they look at the underlying reasons behind the balance problems in their relative burst profiles and address those issues directly. If you know that you have to upset part of the player base, just do it once and fix the issue once and for all. FoTM balance just alienates players in the long run.

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

[BabyYoda]

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

It is true Mao it is true

[Quuoooote]

If you look at the damage profiles for PCT, it's extremely burst orientated. [...] The end result is that PCT ends up concentrating nearly all of its outgoing damage into its two minute bursts, while BLM has to catch up between bursts by simply being extremely consistent.

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

[Sunako]

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

I have better idea.

After Ley Lines cast you can cast despair and flare star instant and without mana cost. Amplifier bring you 3 stacks instead of 1, so you can spam more xeno during burst window.

Oh and bring 5% mitigation to the party whole Ley Lines duration so BLM can have more utility.

[PaulH]

I bloody love Picto

[GoatOfWar]

The "competing for a slot" argument is also silly unless you're going for week 1 clears (which almost nobody is). PF is weird about it at times but I have very rarely heard of statics forcing people to play the current FotM job just because it hits slightly harder.

I don't find it particularly ''fun'' to have my choice in jobs invalidated by one that's the easiest to play in the entire game.
And you can only pick one job for weeks on end because of weekly loot restrictions. So yes, they ARE competing for a slot.
You have to commit to a job because otherwise you fall behind.

[Sequora]

This is what I said, yes.
I'm not for nerfing PCT utility.
I'm for nerfing PCT damage as it doesn't fit SQEX's goal.
Do I need to be clearer?

As for your second remark, are we already going into a strawman?




I'm not, you can simply remove it from the equation since all casters have it, I just felt it was redundant to mention that SMN, RDM and BLM have addle, it's a role action after all.
You can just remove it from the equation of caster mitigation since they all have it.

And where should PCT fall in the DPS lineup? It has similar utility to MNK and RPR.

[Lyth]

Hello, Mr. Enix here. We at CBU3 have heard your complaints and decided to rework the Black Mage into a two minute burst profile job to allow it to achieve greater parity with the Pictomancer. After the great success of the Paladin rework in Endwalker, we are confident that this design decision will provide the strongest sense of player satisfaction moving forward. The Xenoglossy and Flare Star actions will now become available after the preliminary action Leylines is used. Please look forward to it, and remember to provide feedback (which will only be read after the changes go live).

Why hello, Mr. Enix. Longstanding fan of your work, especially Dragon Quest VII. I can see all the turn-based gameplay inspiration positively oozing from your PCT design. I know that you don't want to give away all of your secrets in one go, but you left out some of the most exciting changes:

• Amplifier is now a 3s cast spell with no recast that can be used instantly outside of combat.
• Foul/Xenoglossy have been merged into a single action (Kupoglossy) that now hits multiple targets for 300k damage every 120s.
• Leylines reduces spell cast times using a charge system instead of a set timer to improve accessibility. It also grants the effect Flarestruck.
• Flare Star is now instant cast and hits multiple targets for 300k damage, while healing everyone in a 30y radius.
• Scathe is replaced by a one button mallet combo that is guaranteed to Crit/DH.
• Spells no longer cost MP.
• BLM now has a one button Ice combo. Paradox converts your Ice combo into a one button Fire combo. All spell cast times have been reduced to 1.5s. Completing your combos grants you you either stacks of Umbral Thunderhead or Astral Thunderhead.
• None of this matters because all of your damage is done using instant casts at the two minute mark anyways, to allow you time to brew a cup of coffee in-between the relevant bits. The filler rotation functions like the SFX command, in homage to FFIX.
• BLM now has Sprint as a permanent trait. AM has been replaced with Shukuchi on a 20s recast.
• Getting hit with Manafont up activates the trait Manafont Grassa, which grants the effect Shake it Off to all teammates within 30y.

For the longest time, EW SMN mains dreamed of being able outperform BLM players in the caster slot. With the release of PCT in Dawntrail, you finally gave them the job they needed to achieve this. Now with these potential BLM changes, not only will they be able to surpass BLM, they can conceivably claim to be BLM players as well.

Mao sad. Is PCTs just that much betters than BLMs?

Don't be sad Mao. Just burninate the bad guys.