Picto makes the game less fun

[GoatOfWar]

It doesn’t have to be PCT but the whole idea that only the three selfish jobs can ever be the highest rDPS dealers needs to die

If the only argument as to why they aren’t 1 2 and 3 is “well they only bring damage” then give them something else

Forcing domination of the selfish jobs is just boring, especially when VPR is fighting SMN for “playable by a braindead 4 year old” AND VPR also has the massive utility of being a melee you can play as a physical ranged

Deadass one of my friends played Vpr in the r2 slot for his static through the entire tier.
Vpr is a better selfish phys range than Machinist somehow.

[Valence]

Deadass one of my friends played Vpr in the r2 slot for his static through the entire tier.
Vpr is a better selfish phys range than Machinist somehow.

Out of curiosity, how high were they able to go on the website that makes yoshida (and me) sad?

[LysDusoir]

I've cleared the current savage tier on both BLM and PCT, so I guess I can posit some thoughts on caster balance between those two. I really don't think it is a problem for PCT to have higher rDPS, but only if they are in parties that perform well, as in no damage downs or resurrection sickness within the 2min burst; even with that I find that I perform nearly as well on BLM in most PF clears, while requiring a bit more effort(but that's what I like about BLM). Now, I don't personally care about my funny colored numbers, I do care about the other people I am playing with, and as it stands PCT can contribute almost double(with Crit luck) the output to party buffs during the 2min burst compared to BLM. I think instead of just buffing Enochian over and over they should instead find a way to improve BLMs burst window, something like having Manafont greatly empower your next Despair(or any fire spell) with addition potency while triggering the current Manafont effect after the empowered cast. I also think it would be nice if you could carry Astral Souls(Flare Star) into Umbral Ice as long as you don't drop Enochian, an example where this would be really helpful is after intermission in M4S where you are knocked to the new platform during a burst window where one is unlikely to fit two Flare Stars.

Besides balance in regards to just damage, I think there are some very clear discrepancies amongst DPS when it comes to mitigation and healing utility.. and this tier has made me rant about caster fragility, especially because there are so many physical raidwides. Why exactly do casters just have less HP? Why are we still using this archaic mitigation difference in armor sets? Why don't casters have some sort of Second Wind equivalent? Returning back to BLM and PCT, I think it would be really cute if BLM had some sort of Drain oGCD to bridge them a bit closer to the healing & mitigation difference.

[Valence]

You have a manaward, and the rest should sit on the shoulders of the team mitigating and shielding enough to protect the weakest members. Healers are also left in the same position with the same defense stats as well after all. If anything it's RDM that's left in the dust with nothing.

I like that kind of differences between roles and jobs actually. I'm not thrilled with the idea to make everyone the same when it comes to it and perhaps magical raid wides should hit non casters harder than they do (casters have more magical defense but less HP which ends up in similar results across all roles). The problem is that the current battle content doesn't take advantage of it.

[Carighan]

Forcing domination of the selfish jobs is just boring

This idea that damage output is everything and hence the "pure" jobs are automatically "dominating" because they do more damage needs to die. To quote that right back at you.

The whole idea is that while damage ouput is measured as a number, non-damage output is not done so, but as it exists, it has to be taken into account into the whole package. As in, a Red Mage's rezzing and defensive ability are helping the raid, just not as a number you can later look at in a pretty chart. Does that personally upset you in some deeply emotional way?

[Supersnow845]

This idea that damage output is everything and hence the "pure" jobs are automatically "dominating" because they do more damage needs to die. To quote that right back at you.

The whole idea is that while damage ouput is measured as a number, non-damage output is not done so, but as it exists, it has to be taken into account into the whole package. As in, a Red Mage's rezzing and defensive ability are helping the raid, just not as a number you can later look at in a pretty chart. Does that personally upset you in some deeply emotional way?

This would imply that the jobs are remotely balanced based on the actual contribution their non damage utility brings and not just have it haphazardly thrown into different classes balanced on the axis of damage only

If there was clearly defined paradigms of how much utility is “worth” and jobs were balanced relative to that that would be fine, but jobs are balanced purely on damage (except for rezz), everything else just sort of exists and doesn’t play into how they balance anything

And then there is the argument of what actually constitutes utility, does VPR’s insane disconnection ability count as utility? Should it be taxed for it? What about SAM’s less mobility compared to the other melee. The only paradigm they can seem to actually stick to is taxing rezz harshly

[LysDusoir]

You have a manaward, and the rest should sit on the shoulders of the team mitigating and shielding enough to protect the weakest members. Healers are also left in the same position with the same defense stats as well after all. If anything it's RDM that's left in the dust with nothing.

I like that kind of differences between roles and jobs actually. I'm not thrilled with the idea to make everyone the same when it comes to it and perhaps magical raid wides should hit non casters harder than they do (casters have more magical defense but less HP which ends up in similar results across all roles). The problem is that the current battle content doesn't take advantage of it.

I do love my Manaward and I wish RDM had something similar since Magick Barrier is nearly useless against physical raidwides, regardless many of the melee DPS not only have a personal & party mitigation tools but they also have Bloodbath and Second Wind.. Now clearing savage content in a static with consistent players can make this a non issue, but if you have cleared in PFs then you will experience inconsistency in both healing or mits. A lot of the strats also involve ranged DPS moving further out or not being in range of at least one of the healers(out spreads on m2s as a potential example), and I have straight up died on the phase transition Impact/Cannonbolt in m4s as a PCT because one of the healers were down.. and this was with Tempera Coat + Addle, mind you I was the only one that died from that raidwide while being at full HP.

The differences between roles and jobs should be rooted in how they play, what their rotation is like and ideally having some kind of player agency.. I just don't agree that having the fundamentals balanced across the board would somehow get in the way of that. Let's look at melee DPS for example, MNK and NIN have pretty close rDPS yet MNK has a follow up heal to their personal mitigation(Earth's Reply) and they also have Mantra; not only that, they can make better use of Bloodbath since a lot of NIN damage is unaspected or elemental. An even more egregious example would be to compare DRK to WAR or PLD, Dark Mind and Dark Missionary are not exciting differences between the other tanks, they are either useful or useless.

[AmiableApkallu]

If there was clearly defined paradigms of how much utility is “worth” and jobs were balanced relative to that that would be fine, but jobs are balanced purely on damage (except for rezz), everything else just sort of exists and doesn’t play into how they balance anything

And then there is the argument of what actually constitutes utility, does VPR’s insane disconnection ability count as utility? Should it be taxed for it? What about SAM’s less mobility compared to the other melee. The only paradigm they can seem to actually stick to is taxing rezz harshly

If anything, Raise is probably the easiest of the "utilities" to assign a value. To start, the "official" definition of rDPS:

rDPS stands for "raid-contributing DPS", and it is measuring how much damage you actually brought to the raid. The formula for it is:

rDPS = DPS - (damage gained from others' external buffs) + (damage given to others by your own external buffs)

"We" simply need to recognize that "HP > 0" is itself a damage buff. After all, someone without it deals no damage.

The relative simplicity of Raise here is that it straight-up applies the buff if it has fallen off. It's likely a bit much to credit all of a newly-Raised player's damage to the one who cast the Raise, but surely some credit is deserved.

[BabyYoda]

This idea that damage output is everything and hence the "pure" jobs are automatically "dominating" because they do more damage needs to die. To quote that right back at you.

The whole idea is that while damage ouput is measured as a number, non-damage output is not done so, but as it exists, it has to be taken into account into the whole package. As in, a Red Mage's rezzing and defensive ability are helping the raid, just not as a number you can later look at in a pretty chart. Does that personally upset you in some deeply emotional way?

to solve the issue of pure DPS jobs and utility jobs is to have main roles that is specialized in one thing only and each main role have jobs that perform the same thing but differently..

Pure DPS: should be a pure damage with no utility
Support DPS: should be less damage and have specific utility that Pure DPS won't have (rezz, buffs, debuffs)
Healers: the only job that should have heals that can keep people alive after raidwide attacks
Tanks: the only job that can mitigate high-damage attacks from boss.

I feel like we currently having tanks doing their work perfectly fine but it also do healers jobs too.
support dps jobs are doing same damage as pure DPS jobs and they also do some kind of replacement for healers along side tanks.

all tanks can mitigate tank busters but their doing mitigation should be different.
all pure dps should do high damage dps but how they do dps should be different
all supports should do same thing but different
all healers should heal and shield but they should do it differently

in this way I believe we can find a good balance to current design

[ForteNightshade]

Not even just in the 100 dungeons, I wrote a while back that I was doing a lv 65 dungeon and got paired with a PCT. While I don’t know the PCT kit at that level, the difference in kill speed between PCT and any other DPS I had been paired with til then was very noticeable, everything was dying so ridiculously fast that it made the dungeon a very boring experience for, and I generally really enjoy dungeons. Since then I’m glad I haven’t been paired with another, but from that experience, I totally agree that PCT needs to be nerfed.

It's equally comical in the 90 Ultimates. My static just started going back to DSR and our Picto is several thousand DPS ahead despite everyone playing at a comparable level. It makes me laugh thinking people were actually defending Picto not needing to be scaled back prior to this Savage tier.