What to do about the scions / potential msq spoilers

[Turethir]

I think with the Scions it doesn't need to be all or nothing. We don't need to retire everyone - in fact I think this is a horrible idea that would upset a lot of people - but we also don't need to have them all around at once. Dawntrail almost tried to please both camps but in the process of doing so made both unhappy. The people who wanted less of the Scions just saw them as increasingly pointless inclusions, and the people who love the Scions felt that they were underused and treated poorly.

My preference would be to rotate them in and out depending on the story we're telling. Have 2-3 of them around at max at a time, and have them enter and exit the story where it makes sense for them to be there.

I strongly feel they all still have stories to tell and that they should be kept around, but used properly and treated with care. One of the main reasons Dawntrail's story disappointed me so much was its use of the Scions - I'm a firm Scion lover and I honestly would have preferred that they weren't in Dawntrail at all given their treatment.

[TaleraRistain]

If we're going to be traveling between shards, it doesn't make sense that at least some of our found family wouldn't come along. But for Hydaelyn's sake, whatever they do with them, put them back into hands that can actually write them properly.

[NegativeS]

The Scions are fine, they're popular established characters, some of whom still have significant room for growth...

...if they're written correctly, which in DT they were not.

I forget which thread I saw this in, but it's like all the Scions' personalities were blended together and distilled down into a singular 'Scion' character, who shares Wuk's naive desire for peace-without-consequences and conveniently forgot all of their prior characterization.

If Alphinaud drew upon all the lessions he learned about trying to force different types of people into a single mold, he could have made the first half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead he's just the Scion.
If Alisaie was shown as her usual skeptical, wise-cracking self, she could have made the second half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead she's just the Scion.
Thancred could have been worse, but they could have done so much with the 'ScIoNs WiLl Be At OdDs' thing with him that they just threw away in favor of more 'yeah let's work together!!!'
Y'shtola should have had a lot more to say about the reflection shenanigans at the end of the MSQ. 'What the hell, I've been researching dimensional travel all this time and she's just stapling reflections together like its nothing?' Nope, it's the Scion again.
G'raha Tia got ONE moment to shine, and it ended up being one of the best quests in the expansion. Good job, Raha.
Urianger and Estinien just felt like they were there out of obligation. Their faces are Elezen, but their words are the Scion.

And DO NOT get me started on Krile. Once the humorous rock for the rest of the Scions, now just opens her mouth and stares whenever someone is like "yeah, my great great great grandpa saw a city once, maybe it was even gold?" THE SCION!!

Fire whoever wrote these characters, and while you're at it, fire the job designer too.

[Connor]

SE: “best we can do is another Y’shtola death-bait scene”

[chizLemons]

I forget which thread I saw this in, but it's like all the Scions' personalities were blended together and distilled down into a singular 'Scion' character, who shares Wuk's naive desire for peace-without-consequences and conveniently forgot all of their prior characterization.

If Alphinaud drew upon all the lessions he learned about trying to force different types of people into a single mold, he could have made the first half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead he's just the Scion.
If Alisaie was shown as her usual skeptical, wise-cracking self, she could have made the second half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead she's just the Scion.
Thancred could have been worse, but they could have done so much with the 'ScIoNs WiLl Be At OdDs' thing with him that they just threw away in favor of more 'yeah let's work together!!!'
Y'shtola should have had a lot more to say about the reflection shenanigans at the end of the MSQ. 'What the hell, I've been researching dimensional travel all this time and she's just stapling reflections together like its nothing?' Nope, it's the Scion again.
G'raha Tia got ONE moment to shine, and it ended up being one of the best quests in the expansion. Good job, Raha.
Urianger and Estinien just felt like they were there out of obligation. Their faces are Elezen, but their words are the Scion.

That would be this thread: The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ, and I highly recommend the read for anyone that didn't see it yet. It's one of the best explanations of how the characters are awfully written in Dawntrail, and how Dawntrail tries to ruin beloved characters by incompetence of the current writer.

And even though there's one good G'raha scene...for me it's still impossible to enjoy it considering it's surrounded by everything else, and immediately after everyone goes back to the cardboard cutouts they were before it. Even worse for G'raha, considering that awful ice cream scene. And even before that, he was only there to casually comment on his knowledge from the First, like it was just something he did last week at work and not a huge part of his life that he never talked about that lightly.
One single good quest doesn't save the whole.


I miss the Scions, and I want them back. They still have a lot of things to offer, they still have goals and wishes, and promises we have to fulfill. It's not time to retire them, but we need someone else writing them. And I hate that Dawntrail was so bad that there are people using it as an example of why we shouldn't have the Scions with us anymore. The characters are not the problem.

[NegativeS]

And even though there's one good G'raha scene...for me it's still impossible to enjoy it considering it's surrounded by everything else, and immediately after everyone goes back to the cardboard cutouts they were before it. Even worse for G'raha, considering that awful ice cream scene. And even before that, he was only there to casually comment on his knowledge from the First, like it was just something he did last week at work and not a huge part of his life that he never talked about that lightly.
One single good quest doesn't save the whole.

You know, I think my brain tried to do me a favor by forgetting about that ice cream scene.

Just...

Ugh...

[Hallarem]

Let's face it, they will be the "Insert here to solve the matter"

- Need stealth and espionage? Offscreen Thancred "This is Thancred, I was spying on the bla bla and found out this"
- Need diplomacy? Alphinaud and pasted on Alisaie as a bodyguard
- Need any magical / technological solution? Y'shtola / G'raha / Sharlayan already knows the answer, why bother adventuring at all or talking to locals, Sharlayan probably has a book on it. (Example: Thancred lacks ability to use aether : "OH Sharlayan just happened to come up with a instant teleporter that is experimental that Thancred can use to teleport!")
- Insert Urianger there too with longwinded theory speeches
- Need muscle? Estinien cameo

All of this would be fine, but it's written so tackily and lazily to be an instant solution instead of showing us what happens / people pondering over it, having moments of discovery and you know... being characters? So that's their role. They are their market cash cow, they won't get rid of them or cast them away too far from us for too long. I don't honestly mind them, but like many characters in this expansion they used them poorly. Oh I forgot about Krile? Yeah, SO DID THEY.

[OMGJesuis66]

The Scions NEED to be retired.
The issue is, that we have a player base that will throw tantrums if they are retired.
Ideally, we would have a new set of companions, with the Scions appearing with cameos from time to time to assist within their specialties. The Scions have always been a very suffocating force in the story, they drain all the oxygen and brain cells when they are on screen because NO ONE in the world can be smarter or more competent than they are. That has always been a pet peeve of mine, I hated how all the Scions always have all the answers and old seasoned generals, Grand Company leaders, or Sharlayan scientists just... Don't. The world doesn't move until the Scions get there, and given that the WoL is a silent protagonist, that can't even be blamed on the protagonist.
So all these plot device tools fall upon the Scions, and it is... Vastly draining to see it happen, again and again, when I would love to see some other character be a badass for a moment and represent what they were written to be.

But, it won't ever happen. Which is a shame.

[Xieldras]

SE: “best we can do is another Y’shtola death-bait scene”

Well I do have that on my MSQ bingo...

The Scions NEED to be retired.
The issue is, that we have a player base that will throw tantrums if they are retired.
Ideally, we would have a new set of companions, with the Scions appearing with cameos from time to time to assist within their specialties. The Scions have always been a very suffocating force in the story, they drain all the oxygen and brain cells when they are on screen because NO ONE in the world can be smarter or more competent than they are. That has always been a pet peeve of mine, I hated how all the Scions always have all the answers and old seasoned generals, Grand Company leaders, or Sharlayan scientists just... Don't. The world doesn't move until the Scions get there, and given that the WoL is a silent protagonist, that can't even be blamed on the protagonist.
So all these plot device tools fall upon the Scions, and it is... Vastly draining to see it happen, again and again, when I would love to see some other character be a badass for a moment and represent what they were written to be.

But, it won't ever happen. Which is a shame.

Perhaps not fully retire, but at least give them a break for one expansion. That way their return will be more welcomed and you can have time to set them up with the current/next story.

[Turethir]

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/final-...in-the-future/

Finally, some answers on this from Yoshi-P!

"...if a character doesn't appear in one expansion, that doesn't mean they will never appear again. Rather, we are considering doing things in a certain order." Essentially, Yoshi-P sees a future in which FF14 selectively rotates its core characters (including the Scions of the Seventh dawn) based on what the story is concerned with, just in more deliberate and digestible groups:

So maybe in a given expansion, such and such a character will be the focus, and then in the next expansion, another group of characters will be the focus ... I think the possibility of going down this route is the highest."

If this is true, I am absolutely thrilled - this is just how I want them to do it!