Thread: PvP 7.1

Originally Posted by Divinemights

You only need simple coordination to kill a DK before he triggers Eventide (against normal DK that don't script hack)
Focus fire DK to 45% with Bard Salience and follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu or Monk's Meteodrive to lock DK in animation follow with Ninja's Seiton Tenchu
There are multiple ways but only God knows why NA/EU players are not doing that

Why would you waste precious slots in your 4 man party with anti DRK roles? As said above, making your own DRK premade is way more efficient and safe and I don't know why would someone waste their time trying to counter premades, especially when there is multiple running at once, you're not gonna counter them all.

The problem with anti DRK comps or even solo jobs like MNK is that they rely on non premades to take on the mantle and do it.
First, the effort required to disable a DRK premade is higher in the tenfold, because it requires way more pinpoint accuracy than the premade you're trying to counter: since if you disable the DRK too early, they can just laugh in your face and go at it again once they made mince meat out of you, or if you do it too late the DRK already jumped in and did their thing, which makes anything you're about to do just too late. Sometimes you meteodrive/punt the DRK away and you're like "yay I did it I prevented their combo!" except that once the DRK recovers 5s later, it's not like the fight is already gone elsehwere anyway and they'll just shrug it off and go back at it (and laugh in your face while doing it).
Second, you don't need a DRK to flatten a team, I've done it with a single DNC + PLD, if your team is following, so they can do it with whatever 3 remaining jobs they do have, but granted the DRK is the corner stone to it so going for it is what makes sense.
Third, playing counter is not fun for most people including me: I'd rather play MNK or other counters to directly delete the BH5 players individually when caught pants down instead of suiciding head first into a premade stack or two when my chances do actually get a result out of it are all but guaranteed.

I wouldn't really say it takes pinpoint skill... whichever people you want to lock down you mark, then have a macro to instantly target then with abilites. Moment they're in range you press the button and instant success.

Originally Posted by Valence

Why would you waste precious slots in your 4 man party with anti DRK roles? As said above, making your own DRK premade is way more efficient and safe and I don't know why would someone waste their time trying to counter premades, especially when there is multiple running at once, you're not gonna counter them all.

I never said anything about anti DK premade and I strongly disagree with your mindset
I am not sure why you makes it sound like it requires a lot effort
It only requires simple coordination between a macro, a job "know" how to use silence, and any job with finisher

Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I wouldn't really say it takes pinpoint skill... whichever people you want to lock down you mark, then have a macro to instantly target then with abilites. Moment they're in range you press the button and instant success.

Not really, you disable them for 5s, then they're good to go again. Better to just counter with a dark premade as you said.

I hope they remove chain pull ability, hate hate hate it

Originally Posted by Valence

Not really, you disable them for 5s, then they're good to go again. Better to just counter with a dark premade as you said.

No, the strategy to remove leading DK is called Decapitation
This will achieve strategy paralysis as rest of group doesn’t know what to do any more
The leading DK usually has a mark on their head for his team is removed
Once this DK is KOed, as premade leader he will call retrieve until he is back from spawn point
It takes roughly 1 min for them to reorganize and your alliance already has GCD to repeat and rinse
Removing DK also creates BH gap for this DK where he does not have sufficient survival ability

Originally Posted by Divinemights

No, the strategy to remove leading DK is called Decapitation
This will achieve strategy paralysis as rest of group doesn’t know what to do any more
The leading DK usually has a mark on their head for his team is removed
Once this DK is KOed, as premade leader he will call retrieve until he is back from spawn point
It takes roughly 1 min for them to reorganize and your alliance already has GCD to repeat and rinse
Removing DK also creates BH gap for this DK where he does not have sufficient survival ability

I've found it's easier in many cases to pick off the usual pocket healer AST to be more effective than focusing down the DRK. The damage mitigation and BH scaled shield of DRK coupled with the insane burst healing of a high BH AST makes it very difficult to burst down a DRK. Take out the AST and the DRK becomes significantly more squishy and they get very timid.

I don't think they should ever balance the game around FL, but they still need to consider what is fun in those environments based on the limitations. For instance, it's worth considering having fall-off on things that hit more than five targets. They went and added huge damage and LB charge penalties to a lot of the jobs that had disproportionate performance in FL. This whole-cloth approach of just flat damage modifiers is the fastest way of balancing jobs, but not necessarily the best. If you look at SMN for example, the -15% damage penalty is definitely there because of the limit break's potential damage. Their kit is great and all but it definitely doesn't need to have a penalty outside of that one attack. It makes the jobs way less fun and satisfying to play in those situations, and I much rather have tailored the offending actions with either specific penalties in FL (and RW?) listed in the tooltip or give it some kind of falloff.

I'd also look at fixed damage attacks, namely instant kills. For both CC and FL, I want them to play by the same rules as anything else: be affected by both buffs and debuffs. For example, rather than just have the ninja LB just instantly kill the target, I'd give it a 3 or 4x damage modifier at <50% and have it pierce guard, so things like mitigation or healing at the same update could affect the outcome, but damage buffs on the ninja would also increase the threshold. Same idea with SAM. Aside from just tying it to the rules of the game, IMO they don't feel great in FL.

And lastly, hope some of the LBs just get changed. As a monk main myself, there is really nothing fun about our LB in any environment. I don't feel anything when I get a kill with it. It's one of the most scripted LBs in the game. Much rather have something that breaks guard, is back to a 1m CD, and still does good damage, but the 3 sec point-and-click stun on target and on the monk just isn't doing anything. Rather have more interaction happening between the monk and target during that time.

That aside, every expansion's PvP update brings in actions introduced to the PvE spec, and we know pictomancer and viper are going to look radically different, so looking forward to that shakeup. Don't want to feel like I am playing the same game as I did 3 years ago.

Originally Posted by Valence

Can you explain how you remove the DRK? That's what I've been confused about since the beginning. You speak about decapitation, but you're not saying how. You seem to have a secret recipe that I don't seem to be privy of.

Seiton Tenchu to kill and Raijus to support.
Like I said, I only need a simple coordination from any job with Salience and I can effectively kill a DK I do not recognize
If it is a DK i do recognize and it is a premade, I will mark him then ask jobs that can cast Salience to use Silence asap when they see him.
I will stop his support (BH DNC or Reaper) and Seiton Tenchu the DK if I have the chance.

Also, people are fed up with DK Premade.
If you notify which GC has DK Premade and ask alliance nicely to just focus DK Premade's GC, people are willing to comply
Make DK premade group suffers is what people are looking for now