Thread: 7.0 What if WoL rode the train?

Originally Posted by Cleretic

My bet: Zoraal Ja doesn't last a week, and the invasion never happens. And in doing so, the entirety of the Source is doomed.

I don't think that, without the immediate threat of the invasion, Tural breaks into the dome as quickly and forcefully as they do, so we're probably there for longer than thirty years. This doesn't shorten the thirty year timeline: it lengthens it. But that doesn't actually factor that much to my reckoning; it's Oblivion that gets the Origenics infiltration plan together, and all we really provided was the impetus to put it into action. However, I can reason that everything afterwards still happens: once Zoraal Ja's out, Sphene takes the key and retreats to Living Memory. And we follow, right?

...well, no, we don't; the gate to the golden city is off in the Skydeep Cenote, which we can't access because it'll take more than thirty years for us to get out. ...and we just truncated Sphene's timeline of erasing her memories and going ahead with dimensional fusion by about thirty years. Meaning, nobody stops the Queen Eternal.

First off, I think this is a good read. ^^ That said, a few points:

Even if we can't get to the Golden City, we can get to Living Memory through the giant sky vortex that Sphene uses to get there. We have flying mounts, and if for whatever reason those don't work because of wind currents or whatever, the Warrior of Light would be able to make new friends who construct something that can go up a lot (like a simple rocket, Electrope lift, etc) in the same way that we repeatedly demonstrated during Shadowbringers.

But that said, I don't even think that would be necessary. Because when we beat up Zoraal Ja, he drops the device that's necessary for dimensional fusion. And without Scions or Wuk Lamat there to paralyze us with a monologue, we would simply go pick it up, meaning that Sphene doesn't get it.

If I had to guess, we'd probably just kill Zoraal Ja long before he invades. But killing the King of Resolve would end up transferring full military authority back to the Queen of Reason, and Zoraal Ja did promise Sphene a lot of souls, so she would likely start the invasion herself. That gives us an out through Vanguard, then we'll annihilate the Alexandrian military and Sphene will retreat to Living Memory.

But then comes the problem. Krile has the key but not the authority, so we can't get through the gate. But I'm sure Y'shtola can magic up some arcane solution in the end.

So in the end, what would happen outside the dome wouldn't be too different other than Gulool Ja Ja surviving because Zoraal Ja is already dead before the invasion.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

The WoL is just as weak to 'listening to heartfelt/informative monologues' as anyone else in this universe; the moment Sphene starts talking about her ultimate plan, they're glaring along and unwilling to do anything. (Not that it's easy to stop Sphene, given that she's every single sentry.) In fact I'd argue that the WoL is below average in this field; at least Y'shtola took some shots. Not that I even think this is a viable angle in this context anyway, because we weren't 'paralyzed by speeches' in that scene; there's literally one line between when Zoraal Ja drops the key and when Sphene turns up to take it, and she takes it via telepathy.

But it's not like the road is clear if you do get to Living Memory, I actually think there's an insurmountible barrier that I just didn't bring up because my hypothetical didn't even get to that point: Cahciua's not there, so we have no plan of attack. Sphene's plan is going to be much the same as it was in the game itself, but without Cahciua to give us any direction at all--especially not the way to get into the Meso Terminal--we just can't actually stop Sphene once we're there. Your best hope is that maybe Robor and Alayla have an idea, but because this hypothetical actually means we never learn Krile's backstory, we don't know who they are either, and they're probably not opening up to us without a Krile to pour her heart out.

These are all decent points. There is one factor that could aid the WoL in this matter though and ironically for your argument it's time. There were 30 years of power spent by Living Memory before the WoL originally shows up. Sure Sphene is actively seeking out solutions now, but if it could hold out another 30 years then it's a possibility that she would be open to negotiation. You do a rather good job of painting the deck against the WoL though lol.

Originally Posted by Xirean

You do a rather good job of painting the deck against the WoL though lol.

The thing with FFXIV is that it's a character-driven story with a lot of characters; the end of a story is ultimately the culmination of a lot of people's individual journeys. As a result, it becomes really hard to pose a 'what-if' that doesn't end worse, because we tend to be faced with only problems this particular lineup of characters can solve.

Stopping Sphene is ultimately the culmination of multiple character journeys: most prominently Krile, Cahciua (and therefore Erenville by extension), and a couple we never mentioned, like Gulool Ja and Wuk Lamat; the fact that the Queen Eternal is even beatable when we do get there is because Wuk Lamat connects with Sphene enough to get her to actually stop. That does mean that the problems in front of us are often very specific problems, that can't just be dismissed or easily done by someone else, because Character X doing Thing Y is an important part of their journey.

Random thought with no logical basis:

What if it’s the WoL themselves that cause time-locking. Thus far, the time locks we’ve observed so far only really happen once we cross over. Sure, probably coincidence…but you know what they say: one time a fluke, two a coincidence, three a pattern. We’re so far 2 for 2.

I only say 2 because I’m not sure about time on the 13th.

My money says time would sync as soon as the WoL gets inside, and there simply wouldn’t be a 30 year gap.

Originally Posted by kaynide

Random thought with no logical basis:

What if it’s the WoL themselves that cause time-locking. Thus far, the time locks we’ve observed so far only really happen once we cross over. Sure, probably coincidence…but you know what they say: one time a fluke, two a coincidence, three a pattern. We’re so far 2 for 2.

I only say 2 because I’m not sure about time on the 13th.

My money says time would sync as soon as the WoL gets inside, and there simply wouldn’t be a 30 year gap.

Heritage Found's time synced up when Vanguard was completed and the invasion was launched. It had nothing to do with the WOL.

Originally Posted by Cleretic

So, I think your problem here is that you're writing for 'the WoL as played by a player with absolutely no respect for the writing around them'. But if anything, the WoL is just as weak to 'listening to heartfelt/informative monologues' as anyone else in this universe; the moment Sphene starts talking about her ultimate plan, they're glaring along and unwilling to do anything. (Not that it's easy to stop Sphene, given that she's every single sentry.) In fact I'd argue that the WoL is below average in this field; at least Y'shtola took some shots. Not that I even think this is a viable angle in this context anyway, because we weren't 'paralyzed by speeches' in that scene; there's literally one line between when Zoraal Ja drops the key and when Sphene turns up to take it, and she takes it via telepathy.

But it's not like the road is clear if you do get to Living Memory, I actually think there's an insurmountible barrier that I just didn't bring up because my hypothetical didn't even get to that point: Cahciua's not there, so we have no plan of attack. Sphene's plan is going to be much the same as it was in the game itself, but without Cahciua to give us any direction at all--especially not the way to get into the Meso Terminal--we just can't actually stop Sphene once we're there. Your best hope is that maybe Robor and Alayla have an idea, but because this hypothetical actually means we never learn Krile's backstory, we don't know who they are either, and they're probably not opening up to us without a Krile to pour her heart out.

Once we decide to respect that characters are poorly/unnaturally written when it serves the writer's whims — such as just standing still as the big bad slowly walks past you and picks up the McGuffin of Power — we have started interacting with the story on a meta level where another aspect of the writing is inescapable: the Warrior of Light will triumph.

In other words, if we incorporate into our arguments the fact that the writers often arbitrarily have our entire team depart from common sense behavior when it serves to prolong the narrative, then to remain even-handed we should also be incorporating the fact that the writers will not write a story where our WoL does not eventually succeed, because ultimately the story is written in service to the player. They may not win every individual battle, as folks like Ranjit and Zenos have demonstrated, but we will never truly be defeated in a way that matters, nor will we ever end up in a situation where we are unable to go on to enact positive change in the world.

To be clear, I don't think there's a right or wrong path to take in regards to whether or not we should incorporate "the writer" into our hypothetical alternative narratives. But once we choose a path, we should stay consistent.

Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Once we decide to respect that characters are poorly/unnaturally written when it serves the writer's whims — such as just standing still as the big bad slowly walks past you and picks up the McGuffin of Power — we have started interacting with the story on a meta level where another aspect of the writing is inescapable: the Warrior of Light will triumph.

In other words, if we incorporate into our arguments the fact that the writers often arbitrarily have our entire team depart from common sense behavior when it serves to prolong the narrative, then to remain even-handed we should also be incorporating the fact that the writers will not write a story where our WoL does not eventually succeed, because ultimately the story is written in service to the player. They may not win every individual battle, as folks like Ranjit and Zenos have demonstrated, but we will never truly be defeated in a way that matters, nor will we ever end up in a situation where we are unable to go on to enact positive change in the world.

To be clear, I don't think there's a right or wrong path to take in regards to whether or not we should incorporate "the writer" into our hypothetical alternative narratives. But once we choose a path, we should stay consistent.

Okay, so essentially your view is that whatever the story becomes by altering it, it will warp in such a way that the WoL will win. If Sphene's new plan after we solo Zoraal Ja was to shoot us in the face seventeen times, because there was now only one person in her way, we would somehow be immune to seventeen bullets in the face.

I don't think this is an especially helpful way to approach the question, especially when you approach it as brute-force as you are; you're not providing interesting new ways to overcome these obstacles, you're asserting that the WoL would just... decide they aren't obstacles. It's also vastly at-odds with my own approach, which is to use this sort of thought experiment as a way to recognize the importance of every element of the story as we got it: that if we move the WoL away from the story path, but still expect them to perform their role, we see how important all elements of the story path are in their sudden absence.

Basically: you argue that the WoL would succeed regardless of how close they are to, for example, Krile in this story, while I argue that they hit a dead end without Krile. But neither of us are approaching this argument in a way that's actually speaking to the other party.