Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Somnolence]

I see a lot of players still playing other tank classes. According to some FFXIV demographics sites, tank usage is fairly even - if anything, DRK is used more than WAR.

There are 2x less DRKs doing savage than WARs or PLDs.

PLD popularity being on par with WAR for this is not surprising - like WAR but unlike GNB and DRK it has mitigation versus physical raidwides, has competitive damage, good tools to deal with melee downtime and is fun to play.

[CKNovel]

I don’t put all the blame on tank sustain, I put a hefty majority of the blame on tank sustain because it’s a hefty majority of the problem. You act like I’ve never viewed DPS sustain as a problem as well. I was the first one out there laughing at how overpowered SAM’s new defensive is or why the hell the DPS needed second wind upgrades or why SMN needed lux Solaris. I love how you go “the trinity isn’t broken see DPS can also replace the healer”. That isn’t an argument, that’s an admittance the trinity is beyond broken.

And again if all healing is random AOE healing the tank doesn’t care about then where is the single target healing being used.

Your entire point seems to boil down to “let ME do what I want while the DPS and healer rely on each other”.

The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

[Supersnow845]

The cool thing is that I can use the argument both ways thanks to the data I provided.
What if we removed all healing from DPS and tanks, only healers can heal? Well, healers still wouldn't make use of their full kit.
And then what will happen when people get gear, more defense and just destroy the trash before they have a chance to put the tank in danger? Do we nerf their damages now?

The trinity is simply not applied.
It's not in danger or anything, the dungeons are undertuned in a way that even if someone dies the party can easily recover without losing time or wiping.

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR

The healer kits are too strong but you are literally doing more healing than I am on yourself, that is completely ridiculous in a savage fight, dungeons are broken 8 ways from Sunday but let’s not pretend like this is just a dungeon issue. This savage problem can be applied to literally any single target content which is functionally anything besides dungeons.

In dungeons your argument basically boils down to “just because tank sustain isn’t healers only problem that means it absolutely doesn’t need to be fixed” which is a stupid argument. No one thing will ever constitute 100% of a problem, doesn’t mean you don’t tackle big easy to fix problems first

[Connor]

I've told you already and presented with solid data you can find yourself, they can nerf BW and tank sustain, you will still have to deal with the same issues. The downsides are greater than the upsides.

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

If you nerf tank sustain then there are downsides, for the tank . For the healer though that literally just means not having 90% of your toolkit be functionally redundant .

I still feel like everyone’s looking at things purely from a savage/ultimate perspective. Having powerful tank sustain and dps support healing is great when the enemies output actual damage . The sad fact is they simply don’t though. We’re honestly at a point where I can literally ignore the tank for entire dungeons outside of like a couple Protractions and have the fairy do the rest.

Nerfing tank sustain in a vacuum wouldn’t do anything, I’ll grant that. But adjusting tank sustain, healing output, and damage output in content to actually be even remotely proportionate to the insanely powerful toolkits we have? Things like Bloodwhetting would be good abilities if they were ever actually proportionate to the damage output. But the fact is they’re all way beyond the paltry damage amounts most content outputs. Literally the only downside to that is ‘tanks and healers might have to exert an infinitesimal effort’ which I mean, maybe it’s about time…

[PyurBlue]

Nice strawman you have here.
They were pointing out the thousands of posts that don't matter.

What strawman? In that discussion it was stated multiple times that unless people stop playing, nothing matters. So it very much looks like dpsguy's view is that dissatisfaction and feedback doesn't matter until players quit.

I've also pointed out that even if you nerf tank sustain to the ground, you would still use only half your kit, remember?

And for the entire discussion it was agreed that BW isn't the problem with healing. It's just a big problem with healing. Tank sustain to that level shouldn't exist, it makes no sense and it's no fun to play with as a healer. We could fix the other problems with healing, but BW would remain a problem just as it is now, so either way BW has to be fixed. It is without a doubt the most problematic ability in dungeons.

That's exactly my critic, you act as if there was only one way to fix the healer problem and put all the blame on BW/Tank sustain.

When? In the very post you quoted Supersnow mentioned healer DPS rotations, one of the other problems that everyone is aware of and wants fixed, along with problems like BW.

But you're not trying to fix a trinity or make the game funnier for healers, you're simply trying to save your ego.

I guess BW is just tank (WAR?) ego then and not important. So let's not put tank ego ahead of making the game better.

Here's some facts you try to avoid at any cost that goes against your boogeyman:
-In a whole dungeon DPS and healers takes around 300k~700k unmitigated damages over 12~14 minutes, DPS HP can easily go beyond 100k and even reach 150k.
-SMN, SAM, DNC, RPR, VPR, RDM and MNK mitigation+healing can cover way more than 700k damage, making them able to self heal.

What do we do, ask them to not use their healing tools? Nerf them to the ground as well? How many more are we going to nerf until you're satisfied?

Tanks mainly since they're the problem and not DPS. Tanks are the ones taking damage most of the time, and they are unique in that they tend to take sustained damage that is different from occasional party damage.

Though if DPS or support tools end up being as detrimental as BW they should be adjusted to a reasonable state.

We wouldn't be here talking about Bloodwhetting if dungeons were doing significant AoE that requires healing.

WAR healing would still be overpowered and out of place. It would be the same. WAR's would stick out compared to other tanks and require significantly less healing because they are basically self sufficient. And throwing out AoE's constantly isn't much of a solution when single target healing skills are a large part of healer ability sets. We're just supposed to cast Medica II all the time now and Cure, Benefic, ED, Excog, etc are just whatever? I think the game works well when there is some variety between tank healing and partywide healing and I don't see why we have to give that up to satisfy tank ego.

[CKNovel]

Who said I was talking about dungeons. These problems go all the way up into savage. I looked at a log of mine from my raid main for M3 just then and 57% of the healing the WAR received came from themselves, I as the SGE contributed 20%, the AST contributed 18% and the rest was the DPS. Of that 20% I contributed 19.1% came from AOE heals that just happened to hit the WAR.

Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

[PyurBlue]

Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

Well at least in that case jobs would not feel the same since they'd fill different roles. On the individual job level this wouldn't create homogeny either, a very simple example would be a healer that can only shield versus a healer that can only regen. With tanks you could have a tank that mitigates versus a tank that turns large hits into DoTs that change how healing can be applied.

That's another topic though since no one is trying to strictly limit classes anyway. What people want is balance and this has been clarified more than once, so I'm not sure why you're trying to bring up points that no one is making.

[Supersnow845]

Well yes, you're supposed to heal the party not limit yourself to the WAR.

Tanks takes the same damage as DPS, the main difference comes from tank busters and very spread out auto attacks. You can observe the discrepancy by looking at the offtank who takes less damage than everyone else even despite sharing the tank buster.

But go ahead, show me PF of players doing M3S with 4 tanks instead of 2 tanks/2heals. I'll even accept a minority, shows me the symptoms of the trinity crumbling instead of boogeymen.
I'll only answer to a worthwile proof, I'm tired of facing data manipulation, strawmen and boogeymen.



It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

I am healing the party but I should be actually healing you as the tank not you healing yourself, your entire view is built on the fact that tanks should just be alone in the party doing whatever they want and that the rest of the party should be reliant on each other

YOU. SHOULD. DIE. IF. I. DONT. HEAL. YOU. JUST. LIKE. I. DIE. IF. YOU. DONT. TANK. FOR. ME

if you don’t agree with the above statement you aren’t even arguing anything relating to the trinity, you are arguing a weird reciprocal dichotomy between the healers and DPS while the tanks stands alone as being relied upon but never needing to rely on others. If that’s your view of tanks just admit it rather than dancing around it, because you still have yet to tell me even though I’ve alluded to it 4 times what tanks should actually rely on the other roles for. In a healthy trinity all 3 roles rely on each other, right now the tank relies on the healer for nothing

[Connor]

It's a downside for the game as a whole, you're closing the door to jobs stepping out of their line while avoiding the core issue of the number game for the healers.
Tank are only allowed to tank, DPS are only allowed to DPS, Healers are only allowed to Heal.
Then we'll complain about how every job feels the same.

It feels like you’ve read that one line and ignored the entire rest of the post. Like the part where I specifically say

Having powerful tank sustain and dps support healing is great when the enemies output actual damage .

Asking for encounters to be even remotely proportionate to the strength of tank/healer abilities is ‘closing the door to jobs stepping out their line’? Or maybe it would actually give a modicum of justification for the many, many healing support abilities dps have. Current design literally just closes the door on all of that . Nobody in the world is ever going to say ‘wow I’m so glad the Summoner used Lux Solaris at that timing’ with encounter designs the way they are. It’s the same with so many tank abilities. What’s the point of Clemency when 99% of the time nobody is ever going to take enough damage to ever warrant it in the first place? So people can do no-healer meme clears?

Lastly I’m not sure what you’re referring to about ‘numbers game’….which numbers? What game? Dps? Healing output? Do you mean ‘healers have to dps so they can’t be made to heal’ or are you going to pull out the ‘that’s too hard for the casuals!’. I mean, isnt that why we (royal we) ask for things to change lol?

[Shurrikhan]

Isn’t this only considered the downside for tanks though?

If you nerf tank sustain then there are downsides, for the tank.

That already seems true basically only at min ilvl. By max, our sustain frequently renders parts of itself redundant unless purposely avoiding whatever AoE healing is required. When not tanking Expert Roulettes myself, I've often asked the DRKs who had the other tanks leveled why they run on DRK. The most typical answers: "Because it looks coolest," and "Because a larger part of my defensives actually matter."

Asking for encounters to be even remotely proportionate to the strength of tank/healer abilities is ‘closing the door to jobs stepping out their line’? Or maybe it would actually give a modicum of justification for the many, many healing support abilities dps have.

Food for thought:
Tbf, this is complicated by the fact that even though healers have very similar free sustain outputs, that still leaves distinct tuning targets for using the full amount of jobs' free sustain even when fully geared across Healers/Warriors/Paladins/TheOtherTanks, and healers themselves vary in maximum available output if not limiting oneself to free sustain alone.

Tune a dungeon for Warrior and maximum AST ST sustain and you actually will have closed off the ability for anyone else to clear, for instance. That's the literal most extreme tuning possible that a tank-healer pair could theoretically pass without dps support, but it'd also be quite a step until the next tank's available output in dungeons.

It'd be kind of like if there were only one DPS in dungeons, as per tank and healer, and you had to simultaneously balance damage requirements for Bard and Samurai. But with a yet larger gap, and with only two real contributors (to sustain) instead of 3 (as to damage).