Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Shurrikhan]

No one has debated whether it's currently too strong in AoE situations (except through whataboutisms reliant on dungeons always being dogwater), but simply whether any element of flavor of its healing-per-hit should remain. I have argued it should, since it's iconic to Warrior, but at diminished returns (directly, as per a modifier after the first enemy struck, or indirectly, as by healing for a % of damage dealt).

Scaling factors and tuning are not the same thing. Yes, Bloodwhetting is presently just slightly overtuned for all content and overperforms greatly in dungeons because its per-target scaling is so excessive, but those are separate issues. Were its initial tuning better, by nature of offering the smallest increase to max eHP of any of the on-demands, it would have room at least for some degree of unique perk or feature. It just can't be so ridiculously strong as to have a 500% bonus across an entire content type.

And yes, Holmgang shouldn't be any more than 2min shorter a CD than Hallowed, especially if Holmgang's core benefit across typical content that would benefit from an invuln of any sort is just the death prevention, not the healing spared.

[mallleable]

They could just add a moderate regen to Bloodwhetting if you take damage, and then add the life steal effect to Chaotic Cyclone, and Inner Chaos. That way, the heal potency can be a bit more fine tuned for single target vs. aoe.

[Shurrikhan]

They could just add a moderate regen to Bloodwhetting if you take damage, and then add the life steal effect to Chaotic Cyclone, and Inner Chaos. That way, the heal potency can be a bit more fine tuned for single target vs. aoe.

I wouldn't mind seeing much of that sustain (especially, healing) moved back towards our largely-bankable GCDs as per Stormblood.

Would probably want to rename Bloodwhetting at that point, though. I mean, it's pretty much "sharpening one's weapons on/via the blood of thine enemies".

[Terhix]

No one has debated whether it's currently too strong in AoE situations (except through whataboutisms reliant on dungeons always being dogwater), but simply whether any element of flavor of its healing-per-hit should remain. I have argued it should, since it's iconic to Warrior, but at diminished returns (directly, as per a modifier after the first enemy struck, or indirectly, as by healing for a % of damage dealt).

It's a pretty common problem in game design to have the class fantasy/theme/flavor clash with balance and game mechanics, and I would typically err on the side of fantasy if that fantasy supports a cool niche. That said, you can excuse pretty degenerate gameplay with class fantasy: like should something called "assassin" be able to one-shot kill people out of stealth in a PvP game? Is a niche fantasy creates still a niche if it translates to "I'm the best at doing the thing everyone else in my category is supposed to be good at"?

Putting aside the question of why Warrior even is the signature self-healing tank in the game and not, say, the Paladin, I'd argue it would be healthier in the short term for WAR to lose it's multi-target scaling altogether. If it's balanced in AoE scenario it will be weak in single target, if it's strong in single target it will be broken in AoE. You can't really escape that problem unless, as said before, you make the multi-target scaling completely cosmetic at which you might as well just remove it.

My issue with BW isn't even that it's overpowered or that it makes Warrior the best dungeon tank by a mile. It's the self-healing arms race. Why does Holy Sheltron and Heart of Corundum need any healing at all? Why did PLD get 400p heals on Requiescat combo in 6.1? DRK is now very likely to get more self-sustain not because the job needs it to clear any content (you can MT Savage or run an expert dungeon with 3DPS as DRK already), but because other tanks have it, and other tanks have it because WAR has it in excess.

We have well meaning community videos like this one where the author says: "you can not put The Blackest Night and Bloodwhetting in the same sentence", and he isn't wrong, except that TBN is not the problem ability here. As much as tank self-sustain creates a larger problem in the game (trivializing content, healer strike, etc.), Bloodwhetting is such an extreme outlier here that was allowed to exist through the entirety of Endwalker and now early Dawntrail, it has completely skewed people's perception of what tank performance should even look like.

Yes dungeons are meant to be easy, yes 100% of the playerbase should be able to be able to clear them, but why even have the option to do single pack pulls if anyone with room temperature IQ can go on a Warrior, pull wall to wall, press two buttons and never be at risk of needing a single heal?

[Lyth]

That's true. But it's also a deliberate change in the design direction for the role.

FFXIV is not a fast game. You're not reacting to split-second tells and timing frame-perfect parries and dodges in the likes of Elden Ring. Instead, it's about memorization and preset patterns. Everything is scripted, everything happens on timestamps. You can quite literally pop Rampart 18 seconds before a tankbuster and land it perfectly every time, run after run. It's that predictable. No crystal ball is needed.

Historically, there was an expectation that tanks play proactively rather than reactively. There was no point in using Rampart at 10% HP. You were just done at that point. This served as an intrinsic skill check to the role. I think a lot of people find this too difficult and want to be able to play completely reactively. The short recast cooldowns facilitated this somewhat, although they historically were a lot more interesting (timing Sheltron against untelegraphed Fluid Swings, for example). But this is also what's driven the shift towards so much self-healing on tanks. It's primarily a shift to reactive gameplay, rather than proactive (and also because some people just can't tolerate being at less than 90% HP.)

The end result is that tanks have encroached heavily on healing, simply because tanks are suddenly putting out fires instead of preventing them.

To be honest, I'm still at a bit of a loss as to what the current 'target audience' for tanking is looking for as a challenge. What's your proposed skill check? How do you differentiate a skilled tank from an entry-level tank? It's not DPS, because tank DPS is underwhelming and most of your hotbar space is dedicated to defensives. It's not timing mitigation, because you invuln-swap everything and have on-demand burst healing. It's not positioning, because a lot of fights are self-positioning and your melees probably already have learned how to compensate for your positioning errors even in the few cases where the game even allows you to make them. It just feels like a lost cause at the moment.

[aiqa]

My issue with BW isn't even that it's overpowered or that it makes Warrior the best dungeon tank by a mile. It's the self-healing arms race. Why does Holy Sheltron and Heart of Corundum need any healing at all? Why did PLD get 400p heals on Requiescat combo in 6.1? DRK is now very likely to get more self-sustain not because the job needs it to clear any content (you can MT Savage or run an expert dungeon with 3DPS as DRK already), but because other tanks have it, and other tanks have it because WAR has it in excess.

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

[Terhix]

That's true. But it's also a deliberate change in the design direction for the role.

It is a change in the design of the role, sure, but I don't think you can say it's deliberate without a direct quote from a dev saying such. To me it looks much more as a side-effect of always balancing jobs upward, which is also a relatively new position for SE, they had no issues gutting Abyssal Drain in the past, and despite all the disgruntled Stormblood DRK mains I think the game got healthier now because they did it.

[Supersnow845]

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

I have no idea how you can look at that healing graph and see anything but like every tank graph since ShB launch WAR is overpowered in self sustain

1.6k
1.8k
2.2k
3.4K

Yeah it’s definitely the 1.6 that’s horribly underpowered

[Terhix]

It's a bit more naunced than that. Before 6.X PLD had 0 selfhealing in any normal situation, which wasn't nearly compensated by the slightly higher mitigation, and didn't feel very good imo. This was the state of PLD sustain in 5.X https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...unt&metric=hps, and for dungeons https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...ps&class=Tanks Like always it's a balancing act. PLD sustain now to strong, but it did actually warrant some buffs after 5.X.

Removing healing from the Requiescat combo and Holy Sheltron would feel a bit jarring when you level up. At level 84 you finally get some much needed self healing. But a few levels later, that would be significantly reduced against when you switch from Requiescat > Holy Circle/Spirit spam (with selfheals), to the level 90 Requiescat combo (without selfheals). For PLD selfhealing nerfs I'd remove healing from all attacks, and increase the healing from Holy Sheltron a bit.

To be clear I'm not suggesting they remove any healing from PLD, at least not a the state the game is in today, we need a major balance patch that takes a good hard look at all tanks to actually fix the situation we're in, and I have no expectations of that happening before 8.0.

[aiqa]

I have no idea how you can look at that healing graph and see anything but like every tank graph since ShB launch WAR is overpowered in self sustain

1.6k
1.8k
2.2k
3.4K

Yeah it’s definitely the 1.6 that’s horribly underpowered

Even when completely ignoring WAR, 37% behind the tank (DRK) that people geneally considered properly balanced is a bit weak yes. And that was in a good situation for PLD. In dungeons it had about half the sustain. You can't balance content properly if tank A has half the sutain of tank B.

I guess it mostly depends on the target you set for balance. If you set your prefered target as pre-6.X PLD, pretty much any healing from all tanks is to much. And even DRK would need a big nerfs. My prefered sutain is about DRK levels, or slightly higher. To reach that level PLD very much needed some improvements.

So yeah, very easy to see more then "omg WAR OP" in those graphs.