Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Lyth]

Let me see if I understand this discussion correctly.

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.

WAR's Shake it off HoT is unnecessary. In high end raiding it can represent 30% of heal generated by WAR and it shouldn't be its role.

Agree on Holmgang, I don't think I've seen anyone defending it, even Warrior mains agree for it to be nerfed.

So are we saying that there's a general player consensus that Bloodwhetting, Shake it Off, and Holmgang are all overpowered? If that's the case, I don't even think that there's an argument to be had here.

[CKNovel]

Let me see if I understand this discussion correctly.
So are we saying that there's a general player consensus that Bloodwhetting, Shake it Off, and Holmgang are all overpowered? If that's the case, I don't even think that there's an argument to be had here.

Holmgang is overpowered and you have to dig incredibly deep to find someone that find it overpowered in a good way.
It's not overpowered in a fun way, it just means you have more invuln and I don't think the community has a positive perception of invulns altogether.

Shake it Off's HoT makes no sense, it's there, it's free healing and I get it's there to help with multiple hit raidwides and to compete with PLD's passage of arm, but that's something to see on healers.
If we are arguing about tanks replacing Healers, Shake it off is definitely the biggest culprit. It's not overpowered but I don't think it should exist, tanks shouldn't have party wide healing, same goes with PLD's Divine veil.
In my opinion, If SQEX doesn't want to touch SIO&DV power, they should replace the healing effect with a 5% mitigation, just a bigger shield or max HP which are better trades anyway.

Bloodwhetting is overpowered but only in very specific situation where being overpowered doesn't matter or that can be heavily outgeared.
I'm for keeping the overpowered effect but I'm open to moving the lifesteal to a longer cooldown such as Inner Release or Thrill of Battle.
It won't change the status of tanks and I'm not SQEX balance team anyway, in the end it's still debating about trash pack.

[Supersnow845]

BW is also 2000 potency of healing on a single target.

When being hit by a flat tankbuster it’s mitigation effect is weaker than the others (though the 40%’s have largely mitigated this issue and holmgang covers the rest) but it’s better at shrugging off autos as 2000 potency is nothing to scoff at considering HS the next strongest is 1200

In single target raid situations I’d say holmgang is the most problematic tank CD followed by guardian, after that it would be great nebula then HS and BW.

In cleave situations BW is the obvious worst offender followed by guardian then roughly the same order from there

Pure healing is more problematic than mitigation but incredibly strong mitigation that allows other pure healing to catch up can also be problematic

[Rithy255]

BW is also 2000 potency of healing on a single target.

When being hit by a flat tankbuster it’s mitigation effect is weaker than the others (though the 40%’s have largely mitigated this issue and holmgang covers the rest) but it’s better at shrugging off autos as 2000 potency is nothing to scoff at considering HS the next strongest is 1200

In single target raid situations I’d say holmgang is the most problematic tank CD followed by guardian, after that it would be great nebula then HS and BW.

In cleave situations BW is the obvious worst offender followed by guardian then roughly the same order from there

Pure healing is more problematic than mitigation but incredibly strong mitigation that allows other pure healing to catch up can also be problematic

It's 1600 potency, hs is 1000 (i don't know where you got 1200 from), Both are also less stronger the healer potency healing because everyone always forgets healers have a passive that boosts their healing.

Pure healing generally isn't the full "issue" here, it's mostly the mitigation, not to say that they can't reduce healing on tank cooldowns, but the way to nerf tanks wouldn't be just to remove self healing it would be to reduce some self sustain and some mitigations, even give healers better & stronger target mits (like upping aqua veil's mit and or duration) to give healers more to give to tanks.

[Supersnow845]

It's 1600 potency, hs is 1000 (i don't know where you got 1200 from), Both are also less stronger the healer potency healing because everyone always forgets healers have a passive that boosts their healing.

Pure healing generally isn't the full "issue" here, it's mostly the mitigation, not to say that they can't reduce healing on tank cooldowns, but the way to nerf tanks wouldn't be just to remove self healing it would be to reduce some self sustain and some mitigations, even give healers better & stronger target mits (like upping aqua veil's mit and or duration) to give healers more to give to tanks.

It’s a 400 potency shield and 4 400 potency heals which is 2000 (or about 1300 healer potency), that’s still stronger than almost all the healer heals

Besides guardian which is problematic for the reasons I explained (it’s basically a second invuln) the bigger problem is pure healing because without a healer your HP should be on a downward slope, you shouldn’t have enough healing to outheal incoming damage as a tank

[Rithy255]

Besides guardian which is problematic for the reasons I explained (it’s basically a second invuln) the bigger problem is pure healing because without a healer your HP should be on a downward slope, you shouldn’t have enough healing to outheal incoming damage as a tank

Know what I actually agree with you on that last part I do think tanks should need some form of healing from healers, I do think in some instances (like warrior even Paladin/Gunbreaker) should lose some sustain, but theirs also a argument to be made that mostly it's actually the mitigation and actual damage that the tanks take. I would actually agree with you if your solution wasn't just to make tanks more boring for people who actually enjoy the role (aka removing most forms of sustain makes the role more boring, Mitigation doesn't feel that interactive esp in casual content).

No Paladins Guardian isn't a invul, do that on savage mechs where you actually need a invul and it will show you that it's not a invul, I'm also fine with the "shield tank" that doesn't do as much damage as gunbreaker to feel a more defensive then GNB, Lets be real though both actually have very similar defensive kits and self healing, Besides the fact that Gunbreaker also has a shorter cooldown on its invul, I do not think Paladin in it's current state is a "op tank" it's actually just good for once.

[Supersnow845]

Know what I actually agree with you on that last part I do think tanks should need some form of healing from healers, I do think in some instances (like warrior even Paladin/Gunbreaker) should lose some sustain, but theirs also a argument to be made that mostly it's actually the mitigation and actual damage that the tanks take. I would actually agree with you if your solution wasn't just to make tanks more boring for people who actually enjoy the role (aka removing most forms of sustain makes the role more boring, Mitigation doesn't feel that interactive esp in casual content).

No Paladins Guardian isn't a invul, do that on savage mechs where you actually need a invul and it will show you that it's not a invul, I'm also fine with the "shield tank" that doesn't do as much damage as gunbreaker to feel a more defensive then GNB, Lets be real though both actually have very similar defensive kits and self healing, Besides the fact that Gunbreaker also has a shorter cooldown on its invul, I do not think Paladin in it's current state is a "op tank" it's actually just good for once.

I’m not sure why mitigation doesn’t feel interactive but self healing does in your mind

My “solution” isn’t just taking sustain away from the tanks and calling it a day. My solution involves the tanks actually being tanks in terms of agro, mitigation control over long periods of time (not just flashing mitigation right before a TB) and boss positioning. Right now tanks are just a fusion of basic melee and off healer. My solution isn’t just to nerf tanks I don’t know how many more times I can say that

And why should sustain not be changed because tanks enjoy it when healers don’t. Why don’t healers get a say in tanks doing their role for them

[Carighan]

The invulns I really don't get. I understand that the fight designers probably asked them to make them all 10s so that they can more readily plan for tank invulns, but then they promptly didn't plan for the CD, which makes me wonder what happened.

They were so much cooler when they had different durations and limitations. Paladin with its huge CD, Warrior self-rooting, Gunbreaker cardiovascular health check, Dark Knight having to die. They kept three of these, and removed one. One could easily argue they weren't well-balanced before, but making it worse in balance is so not helping... If at least the fight designers had then utilized the same 10s duration meaningfully I would say it was maybe a worthwhile tradeoff, but that's not something they did!

[CKNovel]

If BW's shield is a heal then The Blackest Night is a heal as well, which makes no sense.
Guardian isn't an invuln, the shield value should be around 35k HP.

I get you want to reduce tank capacities of HP recovery but going after shield&mits makes no sense, what's the motivation here?

[Supersnow845]

If BW's shield is a heal then The Blackest Night is a heal as well, which makes no sense.
Guardian isn't an invuln, the shield value should be around 35k HP.

I get you want to reduce tank capacities of HP recovery but going after shield&mits makes no sense, what's the motivation here?

I specifically didn’t go after shields and mits. The shield on BW is fine. Guardians problem is the fact that it’s a 1000 potency shield AND a 40% mitigation. Do you understand how strong 40% mitigation is. Great nebula is functionally not any better but PLD is also naturally tankier than GNB

BW’s raw healing is 1600, I have zero problem with its shield I just count it as part of the healing.