Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[whiskeybravo]

I spent some time to better help wrap my head around what exactly is going on, and have concluded that perhaps healing up to 175k HP per GCD is a little too much.

The easiest solutions mentioned are limiting the 400 potency heal to once per action, or add diminishing returns on the aoe portion. This would make it basically on par to what PLD currently has built-in. Fair enough. But I do have another suggestion that would solve most issues people seem to have, I think. It's just a little more complicated and includes something of a compromise:

Nascent Flash
Grants Nascent Flash to self or target party member.
Nascent Flash Effect: Reduces damage taken by 10%.
Duration: 8s
Additional Effect: Grants Stem the Flow to target, reducing damage taken by 10%
Duration: 4s
Additional Effect: Grants Stem the Tide to target, nullifying damage equivalent to a heal of 400 potency
Duration: 20s
Cooldown: 25s

Thrill of Battle
Increases maximum HP by 20% and restores the amount increased.
Additional Effect: Increases HP recovery via healing actions on self by 20%
Duration: 10s
Additional Effect: Grants Bloodwhetting ( new buff )
Duration: 8s
Cooldown: 60s

Every single-target weaponskill:
Additional Effect: While under the effect of Bloodwhetting, restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: 400

Every AoE weaponskill:
Additional Effect: While under the effect of Bloodwhetting, restores HP with each weaponskill successfully delivered
Cure Potency: (~130 approx)

This should allow it to continue to scale up with mob count while still keeping it relevant and grounded compared to current output. Perhaps averaging ~50k per GCD compared to ~175k on large packs, and the same performance on ST. Increasing the CD via Thrill does significantly reduce this effect's uptime, but gives meaningful extra funtion to Thill (as well as inherent synergy) and with 60 sec CD it will still be available at least once per dungeon pull and for every TB. This change additionally removes the "impacts" from healing a secondary target, which ultimately no tank has a right to excel so brilliantly at. RIP blue healer.

It's still an incredibly hefty nerf but does keep the flavor, interaction and viability of the mechanic well in tact. Feel free to share thoughts, or math considerations beyond my rudimentary skills.

Thanks,

[Shurrikhan]

I'd just use damage itself, increasing the interaction, or use diminishing returns after the first target. The only reason not to use cure potency per hit scored over healing for a % of damage dealt is so that you can sacrifice damage for extra sustain.

A strict AoE mod both takes up more text on an already bloated tooltip and provides neither the extra AA, oGCD, and reflective attack interactions of % of damage dealt nor the 2-3 target niche use cases that diminishing returns after the first target struck provides.

[whiskeybravo]

The main issue with using damage is that it just binds usage to burst windows, like it was at one point in the past. If it's supposed to be considered a sustain ability it needs to be designed where it can be used as such, not merely because (or only when) the highest heal potential is available.

[Shurrikhan]

So you heal for more during your one-minutes. So do you now from auto-crit heals. So does Paladin from Requiescat.

So it has a potential decision to be made between maxing damage and increasing healing. So does Clemency.

I don't see an issue with the sync/dynamics or decision making tbh.

If you do, though, then there's still diminishing healing returns after the 1st enemy struck per action. Without that, instead following your original suggestion of 130np, there's basically no AoE scaling until 4+ targets.

[whiskeybravo]

So you heal for more during your one-minutes. So do you now from auto-crit heals. So does Paladin from Requiescat.

So it has a potential decision to be made between maxing damage and increasing healing. So does Clemency.

I don't see an issue with the sync/dynamics or decision making tbh.

If you do, though, then there's still diminishing healing returns after the 1st enemy struck per action. Without that, instead following your original suggestion of 130np, there's basically no AoE scaling until 4+ targets.

I'm not a math whiz so I had to guess somewhere between 100 and 150. 150 seemed beyond my approx 1/3rd target, so I figured in between might at least be a starting point. But it is conceivable within what I outlined that different skills could have a finer tuned potency, ie cyclone at 150, decimate 130, etc etc.

Either way, I'm not sure how damage scaling would fit in with the changes presented here. It just does what I'd like it to do in return for accepting a nerf.

*And yes, warranted or not, pretty much everyone I've mentioned this overall discussion to has answered "WAR easy just dps". But maybe that's why we are fam*

[Espon]

If you want to nerf it then just make it heal once per Weapon Skill used, similar to how Holy Circle always heals for the same amount on Paladin, regardless of the number of enemies it hits. No reason it needs to heal more because you hit multiple enemies.

[Zakuyia]

Or how about ppl playing healer do a better job at healing so stuff like this doesn't happen lol

[Shurrikhan]

If you want to nerf it then just make it heal once per Weapon Skill used, similar to how Holy Circle always heals for the same amount on Paladin, regardless of the number of enemies it hits. No reason it needs to heal more because you hit multiple enemies.

Why make it a copy of Paladin? There's a wide area of viable flavor between "ridiculous advantage via its unique perk" and "pure homogeneity".

Either way, I'm not sure how damage scaling would fit in with the changes presented here. It just does what I'd like it to do in return for accepting a nerf.

Did you not play in Endwalker? Because AoE tends to do about or just over a third of single-target damage, it'd have the same balance point as you suggest.

The difference is simply that it then also benefits from oGCDs, autos, reflective attacks, vulnerability windows, raid buffs, etc., which altogether makes Bloodwhetting feel a bit more interactive and thereby, for many/most, engaging.

Alternatively, using diminishing returns allows one to sacrifice a bit of damage for a fair bit more healing in 2-3 target scenarios.

Doing neither wastes the flavor of the skill, leaving it neither more interactive than Requiescat healing nor with any unique niche opportunities over what's available to Requiescat healing. A lose-lose until at 4+ targets, which you will almost never see in more difficult content, be that raids or Savage Criterion.

Or how about ppl playing healer do a better job at healing so stuff like this doesn't happen lol

Healers should, when a tank has the potential for higher free (at no rDPS cost) healing output than said healers, should do better at... what? Overhealing?

Or are you generalizing off some hypothetical where everyone would die if Bloodwhetting healed for any less than its ST value per target because the healer was somehow dealing damage to their party (since even just the healer not existing at all would still be excess to requirement)?

[whiskeybravo]

Did you not play in Endwalker? Because AoE tends to do about or just over a third of single-target damage, it'd have the same balance point as you suggest.

The difference is simply that it then also benefits from oGCDs, autos, reflective attacks, vulnerability windows, raid buffs, etc., which altogether makes Bloodwhetting feel a bit more interactive and thereby, for many/most, engaging.

Alternatively, using diminishing returns allows one to sacrifice a bit of damage for a fair bit more healing in 2-3 target scenarios.

Doing neither wastes the flavor of the skill, leaving it neither more interactive than Requiescat healing nor with any unique niche opportunities over what's available to Requiescat healing. A lose-lose until at 4+ targets, which you will almost never see in more difficult content, be that raids or Savage Criterion.

Yes. I haven't played every patch when it was it relevant but I have been around for every expansion. From what I remember, healing from damage dealt caused it to feel relatively useless outside burst windows.

Also, I don't see the "potential decision to heal or do damage" as actually being much a decision at all. Maybe you can figure out a few spots during prog hold IC for a burst heal, beyond that damage is going to win 99.9% of the time. Sure, using potency instead of damage is "braindead". But they've already gone this direction and tbh I just prefer having the ability be useful anytime I need it to be useful, compared to only when (or only because) it also lines up with burst.

As for 3 or 4 targets, as I mentioned it should start scaling with 3+ mobs, same as general AoE rotation would. Whatever potency that is I can not tell you. So don't get stuck on the 4+ mobs thing.

[Espon]

Why make it a copy of Paladin? There's a wide area of viable flavor between "ridiculous advantage via its unique perk" and "pure homogeneity".

How the hell did you get that out of what I said? I made a comparison and you completely flipped it out of context and added extra heap of crap for good measure. Maybe take a few seconds to read something before responding.