Frontlines over coordination Issues

[Mawlzy]

It is just a lot more fun to be in VC with 2-3 groups of people doing Frontline. And I think having even 6 people on the same team, just moving in the same direction can help herd people into where they need to go.

Kinda like starting a conga line (of death). Sure you can do it with random folks, but if your friends start one the rest of the club will join in too.

"Fun" is highly subjective. That said, you're quite right that a handful of competent players, on VC or otherwise, moving in the same direction can effectively organize a team by example. It's also why these commanders who insist on spamming chat with orders and SFX are such an annoyance. If people are trying at all, they know to follow the (DRK-led) deathball. Yelling at them makes absolutely no difference, other than irritating them.

[Mawlzy]

Sort of off-topic, but continuing that theme...

I had a pleasant chat with one of the Discord mods who insisted I'd really enjoy getting on VC with some of the regs, because I'd discover what wonderful people they were. They may indeed be wonderful, but to me this reveals another dichotomy about how people approach MMORPGs.

One group sees such games as a MMORPG, thus being on voice with friends (or even strangers) is a key part of the experience. How often do we hear a defense of premades based on this precise worldview? "Get friends, form your own premade!"

The second group sees such games as a MMORPG. I am not the amazing, healthy, universe-saving Jessa Marko. I am the partially-sighted me with APM limited by psoriatic arthritis. VC would necessarily remind me of that fact and destroy immersion.

[Aravell]

Do we have any evidence this is the case? Why would people not have their map open? It's an oft-stated claim, and I can't rule it out, but it's never struck me as probable for a significant number of players.

It's very probable to be the case if you look at how common it is in Onsal Hakair/Seal Rock for people to be fighting out in the middle of nowhere long after new nodes spawn, that indicates that those people very likely don't have their map open.

Also, small addition here, people need to stop putting map links into chat, it's not helpful because barely anyone will be clicking map links in PvP. Calling a direction to move in when the team stalls is more helpful.

And what is the "average" FL player? I've noted before the distribution is probably trimodal. People who really shouldn't be there because of their lack of contribution. A fat middle of players who are trying, but are not superstars. And sometimes a small top end, often in a premade.

By 'average FL player', I'm talking about the most common type of player you'll meet, not a statistical average of the skill level.

The most common type of player you'll meet in FL are the ones who run around cluelessly and attacks anything that moves. They usually require a little push for them to attack the correct thing at the correct place. That's why I said that some coordination is required for the average player.

[Mawlzy]

It's very probable to be the case if you look at how common it is in Onsal Hakair/Seal Rock for people to be fighting out in the middle of nowhere long after new nodes spawn, that indicates that those people very likely don't have their map open.

Also, small addition here, people need to stop putting map links into chat, it's not helpful because barely anyone will be clicking map links in PvP. Calling a direction to move in when the team stalls is more helpful.



By 'average FL player', I'm talking about the most common type of player you'll meet, not a statistical average of the skill level.

The most common type of player you'll meet in FL are the ones who run around cluelessly and attacks anything that moves. They usually require a little push for them to attack the correct thing at the correct place. That's why I said that some coordination is required for the average player.

100% agree that map links posted in chat do absolutely nothing to help the coordination. On Aether this has been becoming more common rather than less, which is disappointing.

I disagree that the modal player "run(s) around cluelessly and attacks anything that moves." Again, on Aether there are certainly some players who do that, but in most matches the bulk of the players are making somewhat coherent decisions, even if they can be slow to react or have imperfect strategic awareness.
Hence I have always suspected this idea they don't have their maps open is more likely a case of them not being very good at FL.

But I completely agree some input on which team to attack or objective to grab improves the matches. I suspect that when shotcalls/SFX are flooding chat, however, there is a subset of players who willfully start ignoring them. You can argue such players are naughty for doing so, but if it's the reality then it falls on the commanders to find a commanding style their troops will actually follow.

It's simply counterproductive to regard the "average players" as a hindrance to your beautifully-oiled strategic machine if you rely on those players to help win matches. Whether they are actually needed when an effective premade is leading the action is less clear IMO.

It's been pointed out here that FL is a war game and that "real" battles involve a single commander ordering around obedient soldiers. This tends to overlook the "game" element and how players interact with the mode in practice. In NA in particular, that is simply going to rub many players the wrong way. Coordination is necessary. How it is achieved is more subtle than a commander smashing down an iron fist.

[IDontPetLalas]

I have yet to be in any PvP game, especially at more mass scale events than FL, where constantly barking orders at groups or alliances was required or productive. It was generally regarded that "less is more" - whether commands were issued on voice or via chat.

That's different from questioning whether said orders should be followed- the middle of PvP isn't the time to question those orders. However sometimes issuing less commands, with simpler directions can be perceived as easier to follow and more respectful than a machine-gun, repetitive "lead -the-NPCs" approach that floods the chat.

[Mawlzy]

I have yet to be in any PvP game, especially at more mass scale events than FL, where constantly barking orders at groups or alliances was required or productive. It was generally regarded that "less is more" - whether commands were issued on voice or via chat.

That's different from questioning whether said orders should be followed- the middle of PvP isn't the time to question those orders. However sometimes issuing less commands, with simpler directions can be perceived as easier to follow and more respectful than a machine-gun, repetitive "lead -the-NPCs" approach that floods the chat.

I had a commander I hadn't see before a few days ago with a 3-line, triple sound macro, that basically said "the enemy is near, avoid the attack, regroup." After about the sixth blast of this, someone replied meekly "where to?" Probably because the (admittedly weak) team had been regrouping into little clumps in all possible directions and the commander apparently hadn't noticed and adapted their commands accordingly.

I think commanders tend to be too rigid in general. A sort of stubbornness that stems from them knowing the "correct" way to play, along with the fact their commands are issued purely by macro. I get the second bit - you don't have much time to type - but being reactive to the obvious weaknesses of your team strikes me as a necessary skill.

That said, there is a little subset of commanders who apparently have a huge amount of time to type, and will call me out by name, reminding me, for example, that every time I die it costs the team points. Really enjoying the targeted harassment, guys. Do keep it up!

[Gaiinahat]

Over-Coordination is where the 2nd place team sees the 1st place team is stomping the 3rd place team and decides to help them stomp the 3rd place team and then feed themselves to the 1st place team.

A lot of the current issues with FL would easily be resolved if it went from 24v24v24 to 36v36. Would make the playing field a lot more even than 48v24.

[Mawlzy]

Over-Coordination is where the 2nd place team sees the 1st place team is stomping the 3rd place team and decides to help them stomp the 3rd place team and then feed themselves to the 1st place team.

A lot of the current issues with FL would easily be resolved if it went from 24v24v24 to 36v36. Would make the playing field a lot more even than 48v24.

Pretty sure most matches would be one-sided snowballs if it was 36v36.

[LibitIncarne]

Pretty sure most matches would be one-sided snowballs if it was 36v36.

That doesn't happen in Rival Wings.

[Gaiinahat]

Pretty sure most matches would be one-sided snowballs if it was 36v36.

It already is currently. Then perhaps the devs might actually have to do something about it.