So... This is the "improved encounter design"?

[CaedemSanguis]

Exactly. I see a lot of people here mentioning "difficulty" and it's defnitely not the point: they could've made the first tier easier while implementing a new model of encounter design.

I personally think it doesn't make a lot of sense to start the expansion in one note and suddenly near halfway through (when .2 comes) they completely change something as big as High End encounter design. That just seems off putting to say the least, because if it would scare people in the .1, why it wouldn't scare the same people if we get that in .2?

And I'm still having enjoyment in the game despite everything, but I'll probably take a break until 8.0 if the encounter design doesn't change much in 7.2. Again, not because I think the stuff we have now is poorly made, on the contrary, but I'd defnitely need a 'palate cleanser' from their formula.

we're talking about difficulty because it's a risk to implement new mechanics they're not used to, it can either result as being too hard or too easy

and my guess is they didn't want the first tier to be harder or easier, so they didn't implement those new kind of mech

[Raikai]

we're talking about difficulty because it's a risk to implement new mechanics they're not used to, it can either result as being too hard or too easy

and my guess is they didn't want the first tier to be harder or easier, so they didn't implement those new kind of mech

But why it's a risk now, but not a risk in 7.2, since this is targeted just to a certain demographic of High End duty players? Especially when the 3 raid tiers in practice work as standalone entities, because you don't need to experience the first to get to the second or the third... I remember I started tackling Savage Fights more seriously in the second tier of Endwalker. I just feel that the best time to introduce change is always in the beginning of something.

[CaedemSanguis]

But why it's a risk now, but not a risk in 7.2, since this is targeted just to a certain demographic of High End duty players? Especially when the 3 raid tiers in practice work as standalone entities, because you don't need to experience the first to get to the second or the third... I remember I started tackling Savage Fights more seriously in the second tier of Endwalker. I just feel that the best time to introduce change is always in the beginning of something.

2nd-3rd tier/criterion savages/ultimates being too hard is more acceptable than a 1st tier being too hard

[Jeeqbit]

People asked for encounters to get less homogenized, like jobs, and the devs have promised that they were working this expansion on making the encounters more creative. So far, they're not a lot, that's what the OP has been saying. Nobody talked about difficulty. Nobody is contesting that the first tier is always easier. We weren't promised more difficult fights, we were promised more creative and unique fights.

I'm aware they were talking about making the fights more creative and exciting. What I was saying is that this did start with 7.0, because Yoshi-P said so and mentioned the expert dungeons and the raids as examples.

Whether people actually agree they are different or more exciting is up to them, but the expert dungeons do feel different than what they would have done in Endwalker with that ghost fight, the enemies that run at you constantly, the maze mechanic and there being an actual prospect of failure if you get sleepy against mechanics and don't constantly observe your surroundings.

I won't speak for savage but the normal modes seem different from what they've done for a while as well due to the smaller hitboxes and once again making it faster-paced. Could you imagine P11 or E11 having M2's heart mechanic and having to dodge all that stuff?

But for as exciting as all these are, perhaps they too become something you yawn at once you get used to them and they start to feel "easier". So I made the point for consideration that the first tier is easier in general and that they may step it up more when more "difficulty" is allowed later in the expansion.

[Rekh]

I'm aware they were talking about making the fights more creative and exciting. What I was saying is that this did start with 7.0, because Yoshi-P said so and mentioned the expert dungeons and the raids as examples.

Whether people actually agree they are different or more exciting is up to them, but the expert dungeons do feel different than what they would have done in Endwalker with that ghost fight, the enemies that run at you constantly, the maze mechanic and there being an actual prospect of failure if you get sleepy against mechanics and don't constantly observe your surroundings.

I won't speak for savage but the normal modes seem different from what they've done for a while as well due to the smaller hitboxes and once again making it faster-paced. Could you imagine P11 or E11 having M2's heart mechanic and having to dodge all that stuff?

But for as exciting as all these are, perhaps they too become something you yawn at once you get used to them and they start to feel "easier". So I made the point for consideration that the first tier is easier in general and that they may step it up more when more "difficulty" is allowed later in the expansion.

I doubt it. This level of difficulty matches heavensward and stormblood. FFXIV's long term issue's the lack of punishment and stack of debuffs not beign steep enough. Combine that with no rng and the fights could be done just based on sound while watching youtube. Fortunately I'm seeing actual rng now with Dawntrail content. It's been a huge improvement.

[CaedemSanguis]

I doubt it. This level of difficulty matches heavensward and stormblood.

?

Gordias and Midas were waaaaay harder than you're usual 2nd/3rd tier since 4.0


Im pretty confident that m5s-m8s and m9s-m12s will have a lot more "wow style" mechanics where you have to react/watch out (m2s alarm pheromones for instance)

[Jeeqbit]

This level of difficulty matches heavensward and stormblood.

I remember they mentioned pre-Stormblood as their goal for actual creativity, but with it being less annoying. Because the "different" mechanics in Heavensward were often just an annoyance. I do feel they have achieved this.

The compromise they made is they are now alright with you having to tomahawk spam if you can't be in melee range, which they were trying to avoid completely in Endwalker with the giant hitboxes.

FFXIV's long term issue's the lack of punishment

They do give vuln stacks so that subsequent mistakes can build up to being a problem. That combined with needing to watch your surroundings can make them more threatening. However, if they just kill you on the first mistake, then people say healers have no role or that there are body checks.

I do personally prefer mechanics to just kill, but that is often left to content with lots of rezzers such as hunts.

Combine that with no rng

Well there is specific RNG within the mechanics or specific patterns chosen at random, but the entire mechanic order being random from start to finish is likely something they will never do and I think if someone is expecting this they'll be disappointed. The closest I think we got to that was in SoS Extreme and ARR hunts where the entire array of casts is chosen at random.

[Morphiana]

Yoshi says before DT launch they'll start changing encounter designs yet people expected they'd change those designs starting in 7.0 despite the fact that those were likely in the testing stage at the time he made the announcement. They weren't going to re-work everything 7.0 had coming when he announced they'd make those changes based on feedback after resisting said feedback for so long in Endwalker.

The reason we're likely to see the majority of those changes in 7.2 is because that gives the devs time to build the encounters from the ground up with the new designs in mind and not just tack on a few things here or there. That's why 7.2 will be the true test, because they'll have had the time and feedback from 7.0 to design fights with the updated methods.

If they mess up 7.2, well they said they'd try new things, make mistakes, and make corrections in future fight designs based on feedback (and I'm sure based on retention rates too). If 7.2 is messed up then 7.4 would be strike two or three depending on how people look at it, both of which are real bad which SE knows.

There's a lot riding on this for them. WoW has mostly got their content back up to snuff to be a competitor again. 7.2 will be the first major raid patch after the new WoW xpac. They can't afford to lose all those subs back to WoW by messing up right after a very divided DT launch has already depressed the user base.

[Raikai]

Yoshi says before DT launch they'll start changing encounter designs yet people expected they'd change those designs starting in 7.0 despite the fact that those were likely in the testing stage at the time he made the announcement. They weren't going to re-work everything 7.0 had coming when he announced they'd make those changes based on feedback after resisting said feedback for so long in Endwalker.

The reason we're likely to see the majority of those changes in 7.2 is because that gives the devs time to build the encounters from the ground up with the new designs in mind and not just tack on a few things here or there.

See, that's what I completely overlooked from his discourse. It makes me feel as they're treating 7.0 and 7.x as two different products... But well, if that's the case, then I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in 7.2, it just it wasn't clear for me.

[Andevom]

You really need to take these statements with a grain of salt.

Of course they're going to bill it as "exciting new elements in encounters" - they're enthusiastic about their game even over the smallest changes, and they've overhyped things like this since the beginning.

Here is, seriously, what could qualify as "new encounter design" in their eyes:

"The fights now have an announcer who reacts to what's happening during the battle!"

"There's heart meters above each player to let you know how many stacks you have!"

"The bombs have long and short fuses to indicate when they'll blow up!"

Don't expect this to become wildly different encounter design. There will be some nice new wallpaper, but it's still the same house.