Dark Knight is not fun to play

[tank2fish]

There are already several constructive threads with active conversations, so instead of throwing this where it may be lost in a day, I want to start a new thread that is generally not constructive, but that I don't see echoed clearly for the devs to see at a glance.

Dark Knight feels bad to play.

It feels bad to play in comparison to the other tanks. I'm an omni-tank and I try to invest time in all classes so I understand how they feel/work. That said, Dark Knight in Dawntrail feels like it was designed by developers who have never played the class in a serious capacity, and have not played it long enough to really understand how to play the class beyond hitting a stationary training dummy. Many changes from Endwalker into Dawntrail are not intuitive, don't feel good to play/do, and do not inspire trust in the devs that they know what they're doing when it comes to Dark Knight, specifically. The choices that were made have not been intuitive at best, and outright puzzling and bizarre at worst.

Delirium only giving 3 stacks instead of 5, and yet somehow the devs did not seem to realize that this was a nerf to damage as well as MP regen is one of the examples that point to this. Another example: TBN continues to be overly punishing when other tanks in Dawntrail comparatively have just as good if not better skills to throw on others. Another: From Endwalker, the change to Abyssal Drain to have it share a cooldown with Carve and Spit is a change that does not make sense, and does not feel good if you actually play the class in real content.

Another: Enhanced Unmend. Anyone who plays DRK for any length of time in the actual game would understand that this is a waste of a trait and does not legitimately benefit the play and feel of the class in any significant way. Yet the devs don't seem to agree, which is yet another disconnect and does not inspire trust.

I apologize if I'm coming across overly harsh. This has been an issue for several years now, without any direct acknowledgment or recognition from the devs. It has gotten worse over time, and now there are rumors that the next expansion may have a new tank class.

Respectfully, we should not have any new tank classes introduced if you do not know what to do with Dark Knight and don't know how to fix it.

If anything, it would be nice if the devs could at least acknowledge that there are issues with DRK, so that we know that they're at least aware there's a problem. I would take that much, at this point. It's been very frustrating to see and experience, especially because I used to be a DRK main and it used to be my favorite class. It is a lie to say all tank classes receive equal amounts of attention and resources. DRK remains an afterthought, which is perplexing given that many argue it has the best story. The only reason to play it now would be the story, and to not continue beyond that.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Valence]

As a non tank main I find that the irony is while DRK definitely suffers from all the things you mention, it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

[tank2fish]

As a non tank main I find that the irony is while DRK definitely suffers from all the things you mention, it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

I mean, you're right: playing defensively and that particular niche of skill expression as DRK can feel really satisfying, sometimes. YMMV since it's a subjective thing, but in my experience landing a well-timed TBN to save a healer and preventing a wipe does feel fun and rewarding. Tossing TBN and both Oblations to reduce the damage does feel rewarding.

However, when in comparison to other tanks, it feels less rewarding the more you're comfortable and experienced with playing the other tanks. Especially when it comes to Paladin, and Warrior. Again, this is subjective, but IMO/IME Paladin's skill ceiling is higher when it comes to defensive skill expression.

Paladin's Intervention, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, and Passage of Arms, allows a player to do all of that, but save more people. Clemency can do what TBN does, but better and has more universal applications when things are going downhill. Cover guarantees the person will survive, whereas TBN is only a maybe. Passage significantly reduces the damage taken across the board for everyone standing in it. Intervention does the same as Oblation, but can be buffed and the recast timer is faster, and gives a regen. Divine Veil does the same mit as Oblation, but for the entire party, provides a regen, and gives a shield. Recast timer is only 30s longer than Oblation.

Warrior's defensive skill expression is often undermined bc the community treats it as mindless, but that's often not the case. Generally, a fully buffed Shake-it-Off can save more people and put about equal shielding comparatively as a single TBN. Cooldown is only 30s longer than Oblation, and provides healing as well as regen. Nascent Flash's cooldown is only 10s longer than TBN, does the exact same amount of mitigation as Oblation, and also comes with a regen based on WAR's damage.

If anything, the only class DRK has beat is Gunbreaker. GNB's Heart of Corundum is a shorter cooldown than Oblation and naturally does more mit on its own, w/o being buffed by the rotation. Aurora's regen can assist in getting people's health up but overall GNB doesn't particularly feel great when it comes to saving or keeping people alive.

All that said, if the devs wanted to lean harder into DRK being a more defensive shielding class for the party, that would be an interesting niche that they could potentially explore. If anything, DRK skill expression when it comes to playing defensively is largely under utilized... and I would argue is not a design philosophy for the class, but was something accidentally implemented. And... comparatively, once again does not feel as good as it could and should be. Obviously we might disagree, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with that.

[Valence]

I mean, you're right: playing defensively and that particular niche of skill expression as DRK can feel really satisfying, sometimes. YMMV since it's a subjective thing, but in my experience landing a well-timed TBN to save a healer and preventing a wipe does feel fun and rewarding. Tossing TBN and both Oblations to reduce the damage does feel rewarding.

However, when in comparison to other tanks, it feels less rewarding the more you're comfortable and experienced with playing the other tanks. Especially when it comes to Paladin, and Warrior. Again, this is subjective, but IMO/IME Paladin's skill ceiling is higher when it comes to defensive skill expression.

Paladin's Intervention, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, and Passage of Arms, allows a player to do all of that, but save more people. Clemency can do what TBN does, but better and has more universal applications when things are going downhill. Cover guarantees the person will survive, whereas TBN is only a maybe. Passage significantly reduces the damage taken across the board for everyone standing in it. Intervention does the same as Oblation, but can be buffed and the recast timer is faster, and gives a regen. Divine Veil does the same mit as Oblation, but for the entire party, provides a regen, and gives a shield. Recast timer is only 30s longer than Oblation.

Warrior's defensive skill expression is often undermined bc the community treats it as mindless, but that's often not the case. Generally, a fully buffed Shake-it-Off can save more people and put about equal shielding comparatively as a single TBN. Cooldown is only 30s longer than Oblation, and provides healing as well as regen. Nascent Flash's cooldown is only 10s longer than TBN, does the exact same amount of mitigation as Oblation, and also comes with a regen based on WAR's damage.

If anything, the only class DRK has beat is Gunbreaker. GNB's Heart of Corundum is a shorter cooldown than Oblation and naturally does more mit on its own, w/o being buffed by the rotation. Aurora's regen can assist in getting people's health up but overall GNB doesn't particularly feel great when it comes to saving or keeping people alive.

All that said, if the devs wanted to lean harder into DRK being a more defensive shielding class for the party, that would be an interesting niche that they could potentially explore. If anything, DRK skill expression when it comes to playing defensively is largely under utilized... and I would argue is not a design philosophy for the class, but was something accidentally implemented. And... comparatively, once again does not feel as good as it could and should be. Obviously we might disagree, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with that.

I guess I was more talking about dungeon play than support tools for the job. Sure PLD has more interesting things to juggle with for that. But all PLD, WAR and even GNB are braindead and overpowered to play in dungeons, and that's where I have some fun with DRK. Perhaps it's sad that it's where the job feels the most unique and rewarding skill play tbh, maybe that's what I was trying to say.

[Agner]

it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

I've always jived with DRK's defensive kit more than the others since it came out, especially since TBN's addition. It definitely feels more fun to stack a defensive with TBN and counter while bursting down a crowd, or negating/lowering damage that might kill someone via TBN/Obl, but to me it just kind of feels like being allowed the pleasure of munching on slightly seasoned bread crumbs while the other tanks only get to eat glue.

That said, they've barely expanded on the fun aspect of those things since the rework. I've definitely felt for a long while that DRK's weakness isn't necessarily the defensive kit, it's 100% the offensive playstyle with a few other meh-to-bad spots tacked in. On to my main point I guess.

Dark Knight feels bad to play.

I'm ready to acknowledge that I have an absurdly heavy bias as a HW/StB DRK enjoyer, but my primary issue is the following:

They hollowed out the job's mechanics and barely replaced it with anything.

I commonly see people say elsewhere that the job is fun because it has MP/Gauge management alongside many off-globals, but I genuinely believe that calling it management is a stretch. The higher rate of both MP and gauge gain have been shot in the foot come ShB, and it has only gotten worse since. Sure, dark arts was an illusion of choice, but at least it was a semi-functional illusion. Doing this borderline same-y oGCD burst phase for 3 expansions straight into only souleater with an occasional bloodspiller, sometimes salted earth/S&D just feels... super unengaging.

The result is more or less a job that is not only a shell of what it was, but with random things sprinkled into it that barely have any connection to each other. MP/Gauge is now just a case where you always know what you're going to be doing without the slightest leverage into doing anything else. I'm not even asking for DRK to be what it was before, but for it to be something at all.

This was likely a bit ranty for most, and the job probably simply isn't for me anymore. But I'm definitely of the mind that it was more fun to be consistently doing things with a slight uptick in actions instead of bursting then barely doing anything. I won't say the 2m meta alone destroyed the job for me, but there's been a definite lacking in the attempts to make it anywhere near enjoyable until you burst—then it's all over in just a moment. I'd like to see the dev team do anything with it, even if it ends up still not being for me. At the very least, I could really acknowledge it isn't instead of being shoved a shell with random goodies at the end of the day.

[Valence]

They hollowed out the job's mechanics and barely replaced it with anything.

Seems to be a recurring theme all across the board isn't it.

You ran out of MP after 3-4 Edge of Shadows ago, quit being silly

They used Blood Weapon. The old one.

[Agner]

Seems to be a recurring theme all across the board isn't it.

...Yeah, you got me there. I haven't been keeping up with other job changes this expansion as much as I used to (granted, we're not deep in), so I also can't tell if it's a case of it feeling bad purely because it's the job I play most or if it really is this bad for everyone else. Buuut that's something I'll just have to look at myself.

I'm (Edge of Shadows) so (Edge of Shadows) glad (Edge of Shadows) they (Edge of Shadows) removed (Edge of Shadows) Dark Arts (Edge of Shadows) so (Edge of Shadows) DRK doesn't spam the same oGCD

I've been waiting in earnest for someone to make this joke again someday, thank you. I don't really hate Edge/Flood at its core, but it feels like they really had the opportunity to do something more interesting with it and were like "lol nah."

In any case, I think the current version of DRK is kind of falling apart at the seams. A redo is probably inevitable. I just hope they'll put more time and thought into making it mechanically interesting next time. As it stands now, the offensive kit just feels like an ARR tank with extra off globals.

[AlessaImpera]

As a non tank main I find that the irony is while DRK definitely suffers from all the things you mention, it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

Imo WAR is more interesting defensively, trying to maximise Vengeance/Damnation procs, compared to getting in 1 extra Edge into Buff windows on DRK.

"Just play WAR bro. Why aren't you playing WAR?"

I was actually planning on giving DRK a serious chance when I got to HW this time around but threads like this and others just make me depressed.

Is WAR really the only Tank in a good spot right now?

All tanks look competently built, except DRK. But WAR and GNB look very much significantly more exciting and favoured by the design team, compared to PLD and especially the travesty that is DRK design.

[Valence]

Imo WAR is more interesting defensively, trying to maximise Vengeance/Damnation procs, compared to getting in 1 extra Edge into Buff windows on DRK.

I don't know, I don't find the idea of pressing a defensive on cd and letting it turn into the glowy button on its own to be especially interesting. As for the counter effect out of it, as long as all mobs are hitting you...

TBN requires MP management, and gets most of its value with a careful manipulation of combined mitigation to make the shield last longer. It's not necessarily the glowy button you get for free when it breaks that's interesting to me.