Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Magikazam]

What suggestions does the tanking community have that could increase the overall enjoy and engagement with healers without impacting tanks that much.

If you want healer engagement then you need to make it so tanks don't have as much self sustains as they have right now. The way content is designed make it so most of your ''healing'' gameplay is just keeping the tank alive. The lack of sustained damage just made it so you don't really have to heal any dps unless they don't have enough hp to survive their next screw up.

Like it hard to feel meaningful in most content on the game when Nascent flash exist on a 25 sec cd with no ressources cost to it.

[Supersnow845]

“I’ve seen your posts around a lot”

(Conveniently ignores I’ve been offering solutions to this problem for literal years)

I’m not an authority. All I’m saying is people going “no, I won’t elaborate further” adds nothing to the discussion. People still haven’t ever shown me a viable path that doesn’t infringe on tanks but fixes healers. People just seem to stop at the first half then act like it’s a complete answer.

“Don’t infringe on tanks” isn’t a complete answer to how to fix healers

[MikoRemi]

Neither is infringing on tanks themselves. And I've seen you around for over a year, I don't live on the forums though so I ain't digging up every single post. I will pray those other solutions aren't anywhere near this level of silliness though.

I will just say if anyone even thinks this would work as a solution and that SE would be mad enough to do such a thing, it's pure silliness. And asking someone who isn't a healer main how to elaborate further wouldn't help. If you wanna figure out how to improve rocket science, you ask a rocket scientist pure and simple.

That being said, you don't have to be a healer main to know that hurting other jobs doesn't help your case. Hasn't worked for DRK players, ain't gonna work here either. Figure out how SE is taking the game regardless of your feelings which way, then figure out what aligns close with the vision while getting what you want. Nerfing ain't it chief and if you want to hear about it, then pray come up with a better working solution than what goes against the flow.

Personally I'm more interested with how 8.0 changes things since that's when its slated to really shake up the foundation, would rather not go to the HW era of balance which nearly tanked the entire raid scene or the disparity in dps like EW which caused memes like P8S, hoping for a better balance but as of now, the general kits are rather solid except for the "unique" exceptions like Dark Mind or Cure I existing in general that I hope gets addressed sooner or later. I'll keep enjoying myself meanwhile and hope for the better rather than for the worst~.

[Burmecia]

wouldn't mind, tbh

[AnjouMaaka]

That's literally asking SE to completely change how enmity works, on top of asking for what you are asking for. Enmity is partially based on how much damage is done. I don't know the exact math on it but I imagine it would probably be something along the lines of:

base enmity generation + % of damage done

Never mind the fact that the entire reason your healing is so "not fun" as described is because you still can't keep dark knights alive during wall to wall dungeon pulls to save your life when said healing is actually required, proving to Square Enix that it's still not safe to nerf warrior.

[Supersnow845]

That's literally asking SE to completely change how enmity works, on top of asking for what you are asking for. Enmity is partially based on how much damage is done. I don't know the exact math on it but I imagine it would probably be something along the lines of:

base enmity generation + % of damage done

Never mind the fact that the entire reason your healing is so "not fun" as described is because you still can't keep dark knights alive during wall to wall dungeon pulls to save your life when said healing is actually required, proving to Square Enix that it's still not safe to nerf warrior.

You don’t understand how tank stance works apparently

[AnjouMaaka]

You don’t understand how tank stance works apparently

I understand how tank stance works. I wouldn't be a tank main if I didn't. Tank stance simply states that it greatly enhances enmity generation. How tank stance boosts enmity generation isn't part of the equation here because my point is to show that the OP's suggestion is bad and poorly thought out. It fixes healer design at the cost of everyone else's fun. Even with tank stance, it would likely be a whole mess like what we had at the start of this expansion where they buffed tank enmity because even with tank stance, pictomancer's damage was affecting the % of damage done part of that equation too easily. If they have that much trouble getting enmity correct with things as is, you really want them to do what the OP is suggesting? Tanks won't be able to hold aggro at all.

[Supersnow845]

Youve just proved my point

Your entire 4 paragraph post boils down to “don’t hurt tanks to fix healers” but then you won’t actually explain how you would fix healers without in some way damaging the current tank position

I don’t know how to say this any other way “don’t hurt tanks” is not a complete answer to how to fix healers

This wasn’t even an actual idea with any substance from me, it was just a quick and nasty way to fix the healerless speed kill meta but that doesn’t mean it’s a good way to fix it

But again if you don’t want to hurt tanks then you have to provide a way for healers to be good again without doing it because the tanks encroachment on all the other roles is quickly closing paths to fix that problem

[MikoRemi]

Conveniently forgetting the part where I mention don't ask a civilian how to do rocket science but shows how you yourself don't wanna pay attention.

Nor mentioning how hurting tanks is also an answer. The fact you're even suggesting its not even an idea with any substance just makes me wonder then, what's the point? Malicious intent? Ok, and you could be using that time actually coming up with a useful solution. But nah, 0.1% of the playerbase are having fun with all tank/tank+dps combos with insane healing and res to try healerless clears, let's just mess with tanks with no actual benefit and tanks will just totally agree right?

I don't have to provide a way because that's not my job. I'm pretty content with my position and even when I go healing, it's whatever at the end of the day. Regardless, no matter what happens to any job, hurting other jobs just to inflate your own isn't a path either, its not an actual idea with any substance. So there's no point in even bringing it up unless it's just trolling for attention which is seemingly exactly what's going on.

Like I said, so many other people on the forums wasted their time trying to harm tank sustain as a whole, it didn't happen and in fact got stronger. I wouldn't mind if healers could get some dps buttons back like Shadowflare or Aero III, but beyond that it's none of my business just like I don't care for healers having it out for tanks for having fun. I'll celebrate the very very rare instance of special comp clears meanwhile because of the planning and effort some can take, like the Kougan example of all healer runs in ARR from earlier. Taking away peoples fun is just nasty business, come up with something with actual substance instead of half baked solutions. That's not on me to decide, I never brought this post up in the first place. I can say that it's a terrible mentality though, so kudos to that. If you don't want to listen though then that's your business.

[Supersnow845]

So in this case who is the rocket scientist- certainly not the developers themselves, they couldn’t design healer tank balance if they tried considering we are in the current situation we are now

But since you seem to think I’m trolling let’s go over the solutions I and others have offered in the past and why every single one of them fails some random tank mains idea of what the tanks should do and what the healers should do

Solution 1) nerf the tank sustain or specifically nerf out of proportion sustain specifically bloodwhetting, holy Shelton, heart of corrundum and shake it of-> pretty self explanatory why this violates the “don’t harm tanks mantra”

Solution 2) buff the outgoing damage, specifically up auto attack damage, increase critical autos and allow the boss the auto when it’s casting mechanics-> this is basically just solution 1 in reverse, rather than directly nerfing tank sustain you are shadow nerfing by reducing its effectiveness. This runs into 2 problems. Firstly this sort of upscaled damage is heavily gear dependant and likely only affects savage. It wouldn’t be a fix to the problems in casual content. Secondly I’ve been rebuked on this idea in past threads because tank mains like being completely self sufficient and being able to outheal all the damage they receive, if they buffed damage they said they wanted buffs to their sustain to compensate

Solution 3) change nothing about healing leaving it mostly in the hands of the tanks but give healers a somewhat interesting DPS rotation to compensate for the fact that the healing is being strongly performed by the tanks-> this solution doesn’t negatively affect the tanks. That’s a positive right……..well the roem with this solution is it doesn’t actually fix the healers. There is a few facets to this. Firstly and most importantly people play healers because they want to actually heal. There are proponents amongst the healer community like me, arvaell, Reiner and Ty who also like the gameplay feeling of being an accomplished caster in your own right but at their core healers want to heal. If you went down this route you are changing nothing about how healers are functionally vestigial in casual content of your tank is even half awake nor does it change the fact that in a healing design that favours tank healing tanks still do more damage, buffing healer damage encroaches on tanks which we have established is a deal breaker in this exercise

Solution 4) leave tanks as completely self sufficient but return control over party healing to the healers-> now this solution also comes with a few problems but I think it’s the closest one to working so far. The biggest problems amongst this is exactly why healerless clears sub in more tanks, specifically because they can heal others. If you wanted this solution to work you’d need to either nerf the shareable heals (solution 1 so no) or up damage so the healers were needed even accounting for the shared heals (solution 2 so also no). You could maybe tweak tank damage so that tanks were forced to be selfish with their sustain to keep themselves alive but that’s also solution 2 which is a no. This also wouldn’t affect content where the tank is the only one getting hit on average (functionally all of normal content)

Solution 5) leave healing as is but give healers something to upkeep that is essential to the raid that cannot be covered by any other role such as a permanent boss debuff required to keep him from not wiping the raid or even something like a BRD esque permanent buff on the party-> this again is a solution that I can sorta see working but runs into the problems of solution 3 where it doesn’t change the fact you are basically admitting the tanks are more effective at self healing and that healers should just be compensated by…….not healing



I’m not trolling, I’ve offered and refined a lot of solutions over the years and every single one has been blown back because tanks have an incredibly overinflated idea of what responsibilities belong to them and because of some weird DF trauma with cure 1 mages (never mind mitigation less tanks or single target DPS) the DPS always seem to side with the tanks