Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Ramiee]

Doing more damage by nature of having more gear is a pretty pointless comparison especially if you consider in statics healers are last in gear priority

I wonder where they are in glove priority.

[Aravell]

Pretty sure some healers can do more damage depending on the gear they have on but just in case please correct me if I'm wrong

Gear shouldn't even factor into discussion of inter-job balance.

An i730 MCH can easily outdamage an i710 SAM, that doesn't make the damage gap between them any smaller.

Same case that a WHM with an i735 weapon outdamaging a WAR with an i710 weapon doesn't mean anything because the WAR will handily outdamage that WHM every single time when they both hit the maximum item level.

[Katish]

Gear shouldn't even factor into discussion of inter-job balance.

An i730 MCH can easily outdamage an i710 SAM, that doesn't make the damage gap between them any smaller.

Same case that a WHM with an i735 weapon outdamaging a WAR with an i710 weapon doesn't mean anything because the WAR will handily outdamage that WHM every single time when they both hit the maximum item level.

I actually think even then, a tank with an ilvl with 710 will still out damage a healer with an ilvl of 735 due to diminishing returns in stats which I think speaks even more wonders. It's the multipliers on the skills and the lot of them that make up the difference. Tanks do: healing, damage, and tanking, they supersede the trinity...which is horrible design imo. All sustain from nonsustains should be removed and tank sustain nerfed (or removed depending on what it is)...if Square gave nonsustains sustain because it lessens pressure on newer healers, that wasn't a good solution; a good solution would be either teaching the new healers to get better and/or making the kit actually synergize better with itself (that doesn't mean add healing bloat though, in fact the opposite is better in reducing it. This would make people that are new to the role understand what button is meant for what and why; the way we have it now, the heal buttons are overloaded...resulting in newer players asking "What do I press?" [When a lot of those buttons just do the same thing in terms of healing]...or even worse them being overwhelmed by the amount of buttons and therefore not pressing anything or timing anything correctly.).

[Carighan]

a good solution would be either teaching the new healers to get better and/or making the kit actually synergize better with itself (that doesn't mean add healing bloat though, in fact the opposite is better in reducing it. This would make people that are new to the role understand what button is meant for what and why; the way we have it now, the heal buttons are overloaded...resulting in newer players asking "What do I press?" [When a lot of those buttons just do the same thing in terms of healing]...or even worse them being overwhelmed by the amount of buttons and therefore not pressing anything or timing anything correctly.).

Yeah that's a good point. The modern high-level heal kit is a slew of buttons nobody ought to need. It's okay to have some extra healing buttons, but if they're not interesting for mechanical reasons, or if they're just duplications of already existing ideas, then they really ought to exist only to cover a few bases like GCD single, oGCD group emergency, that kind of stuff. Rather make the existing abilities stronger and more usable to make healers fly with a reduced set of say, 4 core heals 1-2 emergency heals and 2-3 flavour heals.

Then add a bit more damage flavor to each of the jobs, ideally with a low focus on GCDs (as those ought to be kept open for healing, in particular for newer healers), then massively increase the amount of damage to be healed, but maybe reduce the immediacy of it. That is, you need to heal 3x-4x the amount of damage, but you got 2x++ the amount of time, too. Take your time, just make sure you do heal everything, the next round of damage is coming.

[Alice_Rivers]

That is, you need to heal 3x-4x the amount of damage, but you got 2x++ the amount of time, too. Take your time, just make sure you do heal everything, the next round of damage is coming.

I do wonder if that's such a good idea, static regen counts for a lot of healing potential and I think going too long between damage bursts is just going to shift the paradigm from the kind of massive healing capacity that healers can bring to bear to just maintaining regens instead. I would prefer, and feel more engaged, if the system encouraged me to think about which heals I apply to deal with a given situation. That might also call for an adjustment to how various heals work but if the game plays to that then I'm okay with it.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Pretty sure some healers can do more damage depending on the gear they have on but just in case please correct me if I'm wrong

If the tank is horribly undergeared compared to the healer sure... But that's like noting that people in Savage gear do more damage than people with the ilvl 700 tomestone gear.

[Naoki34]

So I was wondering would tanks be okay if say healers did more damage than tanks, and tanks did around the same damage healers do right now so healers are not sidelined in the speed running meta?

I ask because I said overall this would be a messed up nerf, but was wondering if others felt the same.

Edit: I agree adjustments do have to be made but I just don't see what really could be done that really solves the core issue healers have atm which is engagement that does not ripple into lower end content.

Personally I think having such wide access to in combat raises does add to trivialize content at times, and I do think overall tanks do have far too high sustain. Just idk if adjusting that would bolster the healing role per-se or just make it more stressful for many players because that is a sudden responsibility shift that has not been present in the game for a long time.

What suggestions does the tanking community have that could increase the overall enjoy and engagement with healers without impacting tanks that much.

...

Quite frankly, I don't care if a heal, tank or dog Dps more than me, depending on what I'm playing.

As long as the dungeon is finished in 15 minutes, what really bothers me are the groups of tourists where: People die at every boss, low dps or it goes at the same speed with the Scions because there might as well Leave and go do it with the Scions...

[Doomfist]

As a tank main, I'd rather do less damage than a healer but still have a fun rotation, than do DPS level damage but have one button spam gameplay OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

All that changes is a number, hopefully if this change goes through, more people will play healer and I get quicker fills in PF

[Shurrikhan]

No, it's not ignoring a damn thing. Nor is the OP even asking for... anything. It's a literal question.

Now, even if we were to swap maximum tank output with healers' maximum, that affects solely tanks' damage and, thereby, whether parties' rDPS is punished for bringing healers unnecessarily (instead of replacing them with tanks). It would remove that punishment without power creeping the game by taking about a sixth of tanks' damage and giving it to healers.

Because tanks still have about triple the Enmity and double the effective sustain (when including passive advantage, split across both tanks) necessary to make them an rDPS advantage to take 2 of (where an OT is made necessary due to twinned attacks, excessive splits, vulns, or excessive TBs in general; else, 1), this would only reduce it from an rDPS advantage to take up to 4 tanks (where more than 2 could be required for raidwide or spot-healing) back to the intended 2.

For a decrease in damage to affect tanks' ability to hold threat, they would have to be currently at risk of losing threat. Outside of gross incompetence, disconnects, or having less than 30% uptime, etc., they are not. For it to affect enjoyment, players would have to care solely about their personal output, as opposed to their rDPS indirectly provided. Doubtless some do, but that's not a preference worth rendering another role redundant for. A DPS may as well base their enjoyability of their role on their ability to solo current content or a healer on their ability to deal damage equal to a DPS; that's not a factor worth appealing to given its cost to so much more players, and so much greater degree, than it would improve even if such players made up the whole of their respective roles.

[Carighan]

For a decrease in damage to affect tanks' ability to hold threat, they would have to be currently at risk of losing threat. Outside of gross incompetence, disconnects, or having less than 30% uptime, etc., they are not. For it to affect enjoyment, players would have to care solely about their personal output, as opposed to their rDPS indirectly provided. Doubtless some do, but that's not a preference worth rendering another role redundant for. A DPS may as well base their enjoyability of their role on their ability to solo current content or a healer on their ability to deal damage equal to a DPS; that's not a factor worth appealing to given its cost to so much more players, and so much greater degree, than it would improve even if such players made up the whole of their respective roles.

Yep. I've intentionally turned my tank stance off again as the offtank so often in savage fights (so I don't have to track whether I overaggro later) if there's no swapping, might as well, not like after a few combos anyone will be #2 instead of my until the very end of the fight. Tank emnity is ridiculous, tbh.