BRD idea: Songs with MP usage

[Xieldras]

This is just a passing idea I had, but I thought I'd share to see how it would stand to scrutiny as feedback.

What if Bards could integrate our MP into the gameplay like the HW/SB days, while also merging the songs into the Coda & Apex Arrow systems? The current song system treats playing them a bit like an afterthought; play Minuet/Ballad/Paeon once every 45 seconds in rotation. If they were linked to the MP bar, perhaps it would work like this:

Minuet: Remains as is in effect. Uses MP. Gains Coda once you reach a certain number on the Apex gauge.

Ballad: Remains as is in effect. Regenerates MP. Gains Coda once you reach a certain number on the Apex gauge.

Paeon: Remains as is in effect. Uses MP. Gains Coda once you reach a certain number on the Apex gauge.

Of course we would have to reduce the cooldown on the songs. This also allows for easier recovery if you die and have to pick yourself back up. I'm also in favor of adding cast times on them to compensate.

As for the Apex Gauge, it is already linked to the songs. I thought perhaps something in a similar vein to Sage's Gauge, as in it slowly going up the longer the song plays, would be cool and in tune with Bard's identity as a songcaster.

One of the issue remains with Bard's DoTs. I want to keep them, yet I do not know how well they could fit into the kit. Perhaps the procs having more of a link to Ballad and Paeon than what we currently have?

The other is how busy the job would become. Having to weave our weaponskills and keep an eye on our songs plus MP? Might be too complex and put the class lower in the popularity ranking. Not to mention how the Coda would interact with the Apex Gauge and thus Apex Arrow itself (as the two are separate right now) which could cause issues.

A third is, of course, Paeon. If we reduce the cooldowns on the songs, then Paeon becomes just as redundant as before. You would simply go from Minuet, to Ballad for MP regeneration, to Minuet again. The Enhanced Paeon buff might not be worth it in the long run unless you gain something worthwhile for casting it. Perhaps Radiant Finale would be enough of an incentive?

That said, I do believe the idea could make for some interesting decision-making gameplay for the players and offer optimisation opportunities.

TLDR: Songs have lowered cooldown and use/give MP. Play it long enough to gain a Coda sticker.

[Roarmiaka]

As far as the songs go, if the order was the same you wouldn't have MP for Minuet. since there's only one MP regen song in this idea. Unless a coda isn't linked to a song Then you'd have to do a ballad after Minuet and Paeon.

[Connor]

If they did something like this, I think reclassifying Songs as ‘spells’ and removing the cool-down could potentially alleviate a lot of Bard’s issues with the strictness of song timing/rotation. At the same time, if there was a risk of ‘bottoming out’ on MP with improper usage, it would still give the job a ‘fail state’ (should it be deemed necessary). Plus as you mentioned they could use MP drain/restoration if they really wanted to enforce a specific song order.

For Paeon they could make it a ‘MP restoration’ phase where hitting weapon skills or Heartbreak Shot restores a certain amount of MP. Like, if Minuet and Ballad cost 5000 MP (2500 each) total, then you restore 5000 MP over the course of Paeon, which also gives you an additional 5000.
Alternatively, it could be cool if Paeon was a ‘support stance song’ that added effects to certain skills like Minne/Paean/Troubadour(maybe), though more flexibility with song order would be needed for that to work. I mean, we do already have 2 pure dps songs, so maybe having one go in a different direction could be fun.

And in this scenario honestly I’d go all-in and make Nature’s Minne and the Warden’s Paean spells, with a 1000MP cost. Maybe update Paean to give a HP shield if no debuff is removed, add a regen to Nature’s Minne and lower duration if necessary. They could add Foe’s Requiem at the same cost but with like a 2-3% vulnerability up effect to counter high uptime and a fairly short duration (10 seconds). It’d ultimately be used for 2-min obviously, but with the extra MP you’d also have flexibility to apply it in-between if Minne/Paean aren’t needed.

Additionally for DoTs I feel like in this scenario they could act as the ‘MP management’ aspect of the job? Like having DoT ticks after ‘X’ time has elapsed to proc MP recovery, or certain abilities that restore MP having that restoration scale with whether they have 1 or 2 DoTs (Foe Requiem could count for three?)

Those are my thoughts, naturally I’d love this personally. Though note I’m putting aside balancing / community perceptions/ etc, just my theory of what would be ‘fun’ lol

[Xieldras]

If they did something like this, I think reclassifying Songs as ‘spells’ and removing the cool-down could potentially alleviate a lot of Bard’s issues with the strictness of song timing/rotation. At the same time, if there was a risk of ‘bottoming out’ on MP with improper usage, it would still give the job a ‘fail state’ (should it be deemed necessary). Plus as you mentioned they could use MP drain/restoration if they really wanted to enforce a specific song order.

For Paeon they could make it a ‘MP restoration’ phase where hitting weapon skills or Heartbreak Shot restores a certain amount of MP. Like, if Minuet and Ballad cost 5000 MP (2500 each) total, then you restore 5000 MP over the course of Paeon, which also gives you an additional 5000.
Alternatively, it could be cool if Paeon was a ‘support stance song’ that added effects to certain skills like Minne/Paean/Troubadour(maybe), though more flexibility with song order would be needed for that to work. I mean, we do already have 2 pure dps songs, so maybe having one go in a different direction could be fun.

And in this scenario honestly I’d go all-in and make Nature’s Minne and the Warden’s Paean spells, with a 1000MP cost. Maybe update Paean to give a HP shield if no debuff is removed, add a regen to Nature’s Minne and lower duration if necessary. They could add Foe’s Requiem at the same cost but with like a 2-3% vulnerability up effect to counter high uptime and a fairly short duration (10 seconds). It’d ultimately be used for 2-min obviously, but with the extra MP you’d also have flexibility to apply it in-between if Minne/Paean aren’t needed.

Additionally for DoTs I feel like in this scenario they could act as the ‘MP management’ aspect of the job? Like having DoT ticks after ‘X’ time has elapsed to proc MP recovery, or certain abilities that restore MP having that restoration scale with whether they have 1 or 2 DoTs (Foe Requiem could count for three?)

Those are my thoughts, naturally I’d love this personally. Though note I’m putting aside balancing / community perceptions/ etc, just my theory of what would be ‘fun’ lol

Initially I did think about removing the cooldowns on the songs, but I decided against it when writing this because I did not have any ideas about issues that could arise. And great idea about the support options for Minne and Paean! I do love those two skills, even if they aren't as useful currently.
With this idea, the songs would probably be weaved as so: Minuet -> Ballad -> Paean -> Ballad and restart the chain. However players would have options and not be locked into a specific rotation, especially with no cooldown as your said.

Naturally I'm also in favor of bringing back Foe's Requiem. I know it's a huge debuff which means Bard will be picked more often, but I just miss it so. All in all, I agree with your suggestions!

As for 'fun', it is indeed subjective to everyone. But I think it is what I feel is missing from general gameplay: everyone focuses so much on damage, and optimisation, that they forget the fun aspect. Is it fun to play? To me a Bard integrating its MP management into its spells would be a resounding "YES".

[Tunda]

I agree, Any kind of mana usage would be 100% improvement of gameplay perspective.

I hate how game is just adding new resources that complicate things even further

[Xieldras]

I agree, Any kind of mana usage would be 100% improvement of gameplay perspective.

I hate how game is just adding new resources that complicate things even further

I think what irks me most is how those resources are all very similar to one another in my experience (Gauges, stickers, etc). Sure makes for easier balancing, but it seems to render things complex for complexity's sake.

[Tunda]

I think what irks me most is how those resources are all very similar to one another in my experience (Gauges, stickers, etc). Sure makes for easier balancing, but it seems to render things complex for complexity's sake.

it is easier for developer and complex for players

[Kazamaiya]

I myself have wanted a sort of reintroduction of MP usage to Bard's gameplay, but have always been considering how it could work given what we have.

Few ideas i've tossed around is Repertoire procs being the thing which regenerates MP and having something to do with Soul Voice.
Maybe give us Foe Requiem and make it a personal DPS buff or smth that requires Repertoire to maintain?
Maybe make it a timer-based thing that replaces Soul Voice as a (Get 3 stacks of 20 second-proc things to use Apex/Blast Arrow. The amount of procs you get increases the potency?)

Kinda just tossing around a few ideas here!

[Connor]

I myself have wanted a sort of reintroduction of MP usage to Bard's gameplay, but have always been considering how it could work given what we have.

Few ideas i've tossed around is Repertoire procs being the thing which regenerates MP and having something to do with Soul Voice.
Maybe give us Foe Requiem and make it a personal DPS buff or smth that requires Repertoire to maintain?
Maybe make it a timer-based thing that replaces Soul Voice as a (Get 3 stacks of 20 second-proc things to use Apex/Blast Arrow. The amount of procs you get increases the potency?)

Kinda just tossing around a few ideas here!

Repertoire procs restoring MP would work pretty well, it’d give more incentive to squeeze out as many as possible beyond pure dps optimisation.

I feel like Foe Requiem would work best the way it did previously as an enemy debuff. If it was a personal dps buff, it would essentially be like Noxious Gnash wouldn’t it? Those type of skills have mostly all been removed, so I’m not sure devs would want to add that sort of thing. Making it an enemy debuff with a super low % damage taken up effect would make it add a ton of damage over the course of the fight assuming high uptime, so it’d maybe even be too powerful . But I think 1-2% would be enough? but not gamebreaking (as low as those values sound lol)

[Shurrikhan]

Just going to repeat a suggestion I've thrown out occasionally since Stormblood release: use ramping MP-cost penalties for sustained use paired with activation costs to enforce rotation in a far softer way.

E.g.

• Give each song an initial cost of 200 MP and a further drain cost of 50 MP per second.
• For each second a given song is active, its per-second cost increases by 2.
• For each second the song is not active, its per-second cost decreases by 1, to a minimum of its original cost. I.e., if you spend twice as long off the song as on the song, its cost refreshes to its original, and therefore using a song for more than a third of the time comes at a net cost.
• Since you generate ~66.7 MP/sec and can start with as much as 10000 MP, you can therefore sustain a song for as much as 108 seconds at a time, or afford up to minimum and maximum average swap times of 25-90 seconds (still in even thirds) for 5 minutes (or can spend a more uneven portion of time on a single song), 30-75 for 7 minutes, 35-60 for 10 minutes, or per 45 seconds to rotate indefinitely.
• That is to say, you have considerable freedom in how short or long you play a song or in what proportions, with costs increasing the further you stray from a 45-second rotation or from equal use per song.

:: These costs can easily be shuffled around to entice use around a different maximum efficiency or push players nearer to the most-efficient pacing from the start, reduce the penalties of disproportionate use, etc. I just went with these since it changed less (descending towards our current [nominal] 45s durations, assuming equal thirds, etc.).

:: My own preference would offer a bit more leeway to disproportionate use by having song efficiency return to normal in less than twice its use time, as to better recover from mistakes and allow more sway, but would probably escalate a bit more sharply to bring the maximum time down to 90 seconds or so. I'll mock up some numbers to that end soon enough.

ASIDE: Another consideration is whether BRD should be able to sacrifice flexibility in song use for flexibility in direct support actions. Presently, I'm slightly leaning away from that, at least in any directly MP-consuming form, since I don't want Bard to feel too much conflict between enjoying the nuances of optimizing its own damage and providing situational support to its party, but I would very much like to see at-cost support options in other ways.

Why at cost? If you get a capacity for "free", what you're really doing is pre-paying for it, as you will then be balanced around using that utility. You can still come out ahead in fights that make better than average use of that utility, but you then lose out in fights that make worse than average use. Having ways to divert those expenses to more general fall-back options (much like Scholar can get at least some use out of its would-be excess healing capacity by spending it instead on Energy Drain) helps to steady "supportive" jobs' contribution while also adding some further depth to their kits as a side-effect.

To be clear, some "free" (or, more representatively, pre-paid) utility is fine, and what we have now isn't even the half of what we're taxed for so there's plenty of room to add on utility without fitting damage loss, but I would rather any powerful/impactful additions be more flexible and reduce the tax instead.