My 2 cents on ranged tax

[Ramiee]

Double melee and double caster is a significant damage increase over Phys range caster and double melee. All possible DPS comps should do around the same amount of damage.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

Double melee and double caster is a significant damage increase over Phys range caster and double melee. All possible DPS comps should do around the same amount of damage.

The fact that Phys ranged has a tainted role is the result - Machinist doesn't belong in Phys range because overall it does not function in the same fashion as a "lower damage but able to augment the overall raid performance"

[Valence]

The fact that Phys ranged has a tainted role is the result - Machinist doesn't belong in Phys range because overall it does not function in the same fashion as a "lower damage but able to augment the overall raid performance"

I do agree that MCH has nothing to do within a role that buffs the party for secondary reasons, but BRD and DNC are still shit due to the same tax problem. It concerns the whole role.

Totally a fair statement to make - I would put MCH into Scouting

And then what, make it part of the melee DPS role in parties? Or would it keep the rphys role and it would literally change nothing but the gear it uses?

[Ramiee]

The fact that Phys ranged has a tainted role is the result - Machinist doesn't belong in Phys range because overall it does not function in the same fashion as a "lower damage but able to augment the overall raid performance"

I would agree however Magical Ranged has SMN when CBU3 has described it as a role with cast times. It's not a Phys range exclusive problem, CBU3 makes exceptions to their role design philosophy regularly, it's just that with MCH in particular it's not got anything justifying it's existence. It should have really high damage if it's not raid buffing because all it provides is it's damage, SMN has low damage because it's highly mobile but in turn has a raidbuff.
The design team needs to revaluate MCH and decide if it will start giving support to the raid or if it will become a damage dealer instead of leaving it in limbo forever.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I would agree however Magical Ranged has SMN when CBU3 has described it as a role with cast times. It's not a Phys range exclusive problem, CBU3 makes exceptions to their role design philosophy regularly, it's just that with MCH in particular it's not got anything justifying it's existence. It should have really high damage if it's not raid buffing because all it provides is it's damage, SMN has low damage because it's highly mobile but in turn has a raidbuff.
The design team needs to revaluate MCH and decide if it will start giving support to the raid or if it will become a damage dealer instead of leaving it in limbo forever.

Totally a fair statement to make - I would put MCH into Scouting

[mallleable]

There is an achievement for winning 1000 Crystalline Conflict matches on phys ranged jobs called "A Sniper to Remember," and the achievements leading up to it are called "A Wolf in Green Tights" likely referencing to Robin Hood. Phys ranged being 'snipers/rangers' seems to be a recentish point of view the devs seem to have on the role as they distilled the essence of each job in the PVP rework. Which is interesting because a generic 'marksman' class archetype seems to be missing from the game in PVE. Like we have tanks, healers, fighters, and mages, but the kind of ranger/marksman role is undeveloped, and doesn't seem like it exists. I think that the current gameplay design choices present in the phys ranged role aren't cutting it, and would like to see changes to the role so that they feel more like marksmen/snipers/rangers so they can fill in that missing archetype.

[Raikai]

There is an achievement for winning 1000 Crystalline Conflict matches on phys ranged jobs called "A Sniper to Remember," and the achievements leading up to it are called "A Wolf in Green Tights" likely referencing to Robin Hood. Phys ranged being 'snipers/rangers' seems to be a recentish point of view the devs seem to have on the role as they distilled the essence of each job in the PVP rework. Which is interesting because a generic 'marksman' class archetype seems to be missing from the game in PVE. Like we have tanks, healers, fighters, and mages, but the kind of ranger/marksman role is undeveloped, and doesn't seem like it exists. I think that the current gameplay design choices present in the phys ranged role aren't cutting it, and would like to see changes to the role so that they feel more like marksmen/snipers/rangers so they can fill in that missing archetype.

That would help a ton, and in the actual encounter design it would mean stuff like priority adds that need to be kited or slowed with Leg Graze and are more easily hit by ranged units.

I actually had that hope for this "new pve design betterment" from 7.0. We got cool fights, I don't take that away, but in the end it's still their old safe formula of mirrored and symmetrical clockspot-based mechanics, which made me a bit disappointed and kind of worried that if this is their extent of what ever great they can do about high end pve encounters, what can we even expect for a 8.0 job identity rework?

[mallleable]

That would help a ton, and in the actual encounter design it would mean stuff like priority adds that need to be kited or slowed with Leg Graze and are more easily hit by ranged units.

I actually had that hope for this "new pve design betterment" from 7.0. We got cool fights, I don't take that away, but in the end it's still their old safe formula of mirrored and symmetrical clockspot-based mechanics, which made me a bit disappointed and kind of worried that if this is their extent of what ever great they can do about high end pve encounters, what can we even expect for a 8.0 job identity rework?

I feel like that's the design challenge that needs to be figured out: how to provide ranger/sniper style gameplay on a single target raid boss. From a thematic standpoint, it might not always make sense for a boss to throw random mobs at a party for the phys ranged to deal with as well as most fights before Dawntrail rarely utilize adds. So to me, solving it lies in job design. I think walking casts can do a lot of heavy lifting, but also entertaining the idea of 'phys ranged postionals' as vaguely explored in the recent phys ranged role quest solo battle could also be a possibility.

[VentVanitas]

a concession needs to be made because whatever SE is doing with the role simply isn't working. if they can't be support DPS (since all of the meaningful support tools have either been cannibalized by other jobs or removed to likely never return) or not even have the advantage in disconnect-heavy fights like M3S, then what are they supposed to be? therapists for melee players?

[Lyth]

not even have the advantage in disconnect-heavy fights like M3S

Last I checked, this advantage was held by PCT, and BLM was a top choice as well.

I know that a lot of casters want to play this off as melee vs. ranged, but the truth is that double caster was the prog standard on the tier and a lot of Physical Ranged players felt like they were left in the dust. The question I would ask is why a MCH should be considered inferior to a PCT that offers such strong burst, utility, and mobility tools. I think that if you abolished the 'Physical Ranged'/'Magical Ranged' dichotomy and treated both groups as equals, then you can have a fair discussion on how much of a reward should be provided to offset fight-specific melee downtime. The discrepancy lies between Physical Ranged and Magical Ranged and the differences in how these two groups are treated.