M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Nadda]

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of skill level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

[Aravell]

Yep this is it, people can say healers are in a good place but they aren't its a lie.
Content can be cleared without them so if people get good enough to remove them from play they will because healers aren't efficent, if removing a healer cuts of minutes from a fight people will do it and people will learn that strat. Healers need to be necessary for them to survive, the exact same thing would happen to tanks if they were able to be removed from play. People want more damage, they never want more healing or tanking above whats necessary to clear an encounter.
Think I am wrong? Current BIS for healers has a crafted piece on it because it has no piety because piety doesn't provide damage, people do not care about anything but damage.

The thing about healers being entirely removed is that it proves that the absolute minimum requirement doesn't require a healer. That basically means that bringing a single healer along is nothing but insurance, and given that even one single healer is nothing but insurance, what's the point in having two?

[Supersnow845]

You aren’t good enough to do this is such a dishonest argument because if people on here actually did go out and do this the same people would just turn around go “congratulations but you have to understand that not everyone is as good as you so obviously you have to consider other people” and still dodge actually engaging with the point

Look at the vod (and in the following comment I mean no disrespect to the players), they had cactbot running, they failed 4 mechanics, 2 people died, they didn’t even see soft enrage, they used no clemencies during uptime

This isn’t a grand deceleration of skill, this is just a generic attempt at a speed kill that’s only not more common because FFlogs sets standard parties as the only ones you can properly log on. Any static who across its 8 members average blues and purples can do this easily

[Ritsugamesh]

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

Isn't it just as insulting to suggest that high-caliber players don't engage in the forums?

The traditional format is used most because it is the most risk-averse. I.e. an uncoordinated group of whoevers can catch a few floor tanks, fail a few minor mechanics, and get over the finish line with some good grace. That does not translate to traditional parties work the best. It is inarguable that any comp that reduces from 2 healers (solo heal, 4 tanks, whatever) will clear faster.

Clearly, M4S is clearable without healers. It's been done. So the skills and capabilities exist in-game to do it. Ergo, it literally is a player skill issue that prevents other parties from replicating it. Was it a faster clear? Yes. Did anyone die? No. Does that make it more effective than a traditional clear? I'd argue yes. Because realistically, kill time is the only metric we have to compare. Faster = better.

[Ramiee]

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

With all due respect that does not matter. Your role is optional, it should be mandatory for current content. You should be yelling at CBU3 to increase the healing checks or nerf the Tank/DPS heals. But well I don't actually care, its your role, if you want to play as an optional role thats fine has no effect on me since I play DPS and know there will always be a place for me, unlike you who will be dropped if we DPS and Tanks keep getting more healing and we don't need your role's terrible damage, all you provide for us is healing if that isn't needed then goodbye.

The thing about healers being entirely removed is that it proves that the absolute minimum requirement doesn't require a healer. That basically means that bringing a single healer along is nothing but insurance, and given that even one single healer is nothing but insurance, what's the point in having two?

Exactly which is why its common that healers are dropped in reclears even in PF. Eventually after a few months if you see a nonstandard comp in PF it is always replacing a Healer with a DPS, healers and to a lesser extent tanks only exist because they are needed for content. If a DPS could replace both roles it'll happen, happens in pretty much all MMOs.

[Nadda]

Isn't it just as insulting to suggest that high-caliber players don't engage in the forums?

The traditional format is used most because it is the most risk-averse. I.e. an uncoordinated group of whoevers can catch a few floor tanks, fail a few minor mechanics, and get over the finish line with some good grace. That does not translate to traditional parties work the best. It is inarguable that any comp that reduces from 2 healers (solo heal, 4 tanks, whatever) will clear faster.

Clearly, M4S is clearable without healers. It's been done. So the skills and capabilities exist in-game to do it. Ergo, it literally is a player skill issue that prevents other parties from replicating it. Was it a faster clear? Yes. Did anyone die? No. Does that make it more effective than a traditional clear? I'd argue yes. Because realistically, kill time is the only metric we have to compare. Faster = better.

Depends on why you'd find it insulting; I'm not setting myself above others.

M4S could potentially be cleared by a myriad of compositions I could offer no opinion outside of that. It isn't proper to use exceptions to make your rules.

And it is an exception you are making if you are considering player skill issues to be the barrier between traditional groups and healerless ones.

Especially if you're going to be making a serious argument that healers aren't necessary when clearly they are for most people. Healers make the fights easier or "Risk-averse" as you said.
The system works out fine for me. It stands to reason that exceptional players can do exceptional things because they are the exception.

But for the rest of us mortals included on this forum are not exceptional.
Not that you need to be exceptional to have a valid opinion but I'm pointing out that if you're concerned about the state of healers - you've just made my case as to why they are very much necessary.

Most players want a smooth run that will be forgiving therefore the optimal stratagem is to play the traditional comp.

If I were to find more healerless groups that would infer that is the easier route the path of least resistance and most optimal way to play.

If playing without healers was the most optimal for everyone that be a problem but it's not.

[Ozmandis]

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of skill level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

I'm sorry but I am never ever gonna accept the idea that pressing mitigation in high-end content is a difficult skill to acquire. The rest of the skillset associated with a job we can talk about it but that ? Mitigation is neither hard to do nor optionnal when you do this type of content PERIOD. If you find that it is hard, don't go into savage/ultimate and continue to play in game modes where it is not a requirement. If you can't be bothered to use a 90s skill on cooldown, I fail to see how you can be anything other than someone that just want to be carried. If you are making the argument that it is hard then you are probably very bad at other parts of your job and as such you should not tag in anything other than normal mode.

I swear to god, it's so easy that if Hector would bother to do a guide on how to clear fights without healers, we'll be getting a lot more people doing it.

[Connor]

I swear to god, it's so easy that if Hector would bother to do a guide on how to clear fights without healers, we'll be getting a lot more people doing it.

I just thinking this but can you imagine if they made it possible to queue DF with 1X tank 3X dps (or 2X tank 6X DPS)? Healers would all but drop off the face of the earth lol. And I mean, even if people did need healers, the role has become so diminished that people outside it see it as more a joke than anything. They’re never going to think they needed healers lol.

It’s bad enough how diminished the healing role has become in savage, but it’s significant enough now that for most people the only reason healers even join parties outside of savage is because DF forced them in.
Like that kid everyone really doesn’t like but they have to be nice to them because they’re like a family friend’s kid or something lol.

[Turtledeluxe]

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of difficulty level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

FFXiV and job design are not rocket science, get off your high horse. Elitism isn't going to stop the feedback.

Tanks are broken on every diffculty level btw, not just high end.

I'd also note consider that the meta for an encounter can in fact be different from what is "tradtional". Many players run traditional, but you're assuming that is because of skill level when it could also just be lack of knowledge or motivation. The game actively pushes traditional setup 24/7. I'm not saying that this is true for this encounter, maybe it isn't. But being convenient and being the literal meta based on hard data are separate things. Saying things like "I need to see it more often for it to be true" is a fallacy.

Lastly the players you are praising here use addons.

I just thinking this but can you imagine if they made it possible to queue DF with 1X tank 3X dps (or 2X tank 6X DPS)? Healers would all but drop off the face of the earth lol. And I mean, even if people did need healers, the role has become so diminished that people outside it see it as more a joke than anything. They’re never going to think they needed healers lol.

It’s bad enough how diminished the healing role has become in savage, but it’s significant enough now that for most people the only reason healers even join parties outside of savage is because DF forced them in.
Like that kid everyone really doesn’t like but they have to be nice to them because they’re like a family friend’s kid or something lol.

Exactly correct. For any given dungeon, healer absent runs are generally the meta and have been for some time. If they didnt have the restiction, maybe you would see more people go for whatever gets the quickest result. Similarly, once prog phases expire you see lesser used jobs get used more and variant comps like this one.

[Wyti]

The only reason most top group are not progging with 4 tanks is the possibility of the fight including a Light Party Mechanic that is almost always targeted on the 2 healers and would result in random wipe if you don't have the standard comp.

Same reason as this fight was cleared with 4 tanks, you need 4 supports and 4 dps for the myriad of pair mechanics and here bringing 4 tanks is the best composition with 4 supports.

If targeting in Savage change at any one point to be more reactive (i.e a way to know the 2 target of the double share in advance) we would probably see a big increase of people going in with 1 healer and a RDM, which can both recover faster from death, and does about double the damage of a healer, nullifying all enrages.
Or they could go the 3 Tanks + healer route, or a lot of other comps, all faster and not that much riskier than having 2 healers.

And yes they can even be safer, say you bring an extra PLD whose only role is using Cover / Intervention on the RDM if things go bad. You could recover from almost any mechanics in the game bar pure raidwipe, compared to a 2 tanks 2 heals comp, if things go bad the healer as the frailest job in the game bar none would usually both die, followed by the casters.