M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Bobby66]

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG. I do not a pld alone can do healing more effectively as a healer it just so happens when you get a bunch of roles that have a degree of sustain and utility it can match what a healer can do.

[Rithy255]

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

[Supersnow845]

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

[Rithy255]

It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

[Supersnow845]

tanks do not have better healing then healers that's the most wildest take I've heard yet, the only case where this is true is warrior in AOE pulls. Please explain how Healers have worse healing tools then tanks in 99% of circumstances.

Theirs a reason why tanks barely have any cross over is because their main "role" is to press a stance and be slow DPS, the only other thing is "mitigation" which vaguely can be considered a more tank like skill, but it has cross over with healers a lot of the time, which every job has a form of mit even if tiny, healers infact have a lot more AOE mitigation and ways to prevent upcoming damage, tanks self mits are sure insanely strong, but I'm not against tuning down tank mits lol.

Because the tank heals are more suited to the actual method of healing that’s encouraged in 14

Let’s take PLD, PLD has 3 mitigations, one of them is a shield, very strong self rotational healing and 2 forms of the same mitigation that can either heal itself or heal others

So it excels at mitigating big hits on the party that the game loves to use (the only 2 classes that have more mitigation than PLD are the literal shield healers), it excels at healing itself when it’s taking damage given literally none of its commonly used heals cost DPS (hell HS is neutral and the magic heals are a DPS GAIN to press) and it excels at healing others as it loses functionally nothing to pressing intervention to heal another as they rarely need HS to heal themselves and their overheal is far less than the true healers because they don’t waste healing on healing everything with AOE heals when they don’t need to

GNB basically mirrors PLD but trades worse AOE mitigation for better shareable defensives and WAR is just WAR

The tanks are 100% better self healers than the healers and while they can’t rival the thereotical HPS of the healers they are just as effective at the eHPS needed to clear the fight

Theoretical HPS bloat of the healers isn’t useful when it isn’t needed

[Ayche]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

[Supersnow845]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

[Jojoya]

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG.

Yet it has gone overboard to the point that tanks no longer need healers at all, and they don't need damage dealers unless there is a DPS check to beat that tank DPS can't handle.

If a tank dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect the tank quickly (if they haven't just used their Swiftcast), tank can provoke as soon as they're up and wipe is averted.

If a damage dealer dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect them quickly to contribute to any DPS check the party needs to pass to avoid a wipe.

If a healer dies, who is there to resurrect the healer? Either the party has RDM or SMN, or the healer remains dead.

The answer isn't to give other roles multiple tools to handle healing and mitigation. The answer is to give the other roles a tool to resurrect the healer so they can perform their role just as the healer is able to resurrect the other roles so they can do theirs.

That's not to say that the other roles should have no tools for healing and mitigation. But those tools should be rare with moderate length recast time (90-120 seconds) and should apply to self only (outside of tanks getting a party wide mitigation tool to use, which would be appropriate for their role).

The utility that damage dealers get should be related to dealing damage. Increase the damage done by self and party members. Debuff the boss to reduce their damage dealt and/or increase damage taken. I'm old school enough I would love to see crowd control make a comeback for some boss fights and having damage dealers responsible for that.

The job design team needs to step back and remember the point of each role in the trinity. Tanks generate enmity so the majority of incoming damage is directed at them, then mitigate the damage received so they can survive long enough to get needed healing from healers. Damage dealers deal damage to all enemies while doing their best to avoid avoidable damage. They likewise should be relying on healers to handle unavoidable damage plus any additional damage taken due to errors.

If they're going to keep giving a single role more and more tools then design encounters so the other roles are only relevant to speed of kill and not to success, then they need to get rid of the trinity entirely and give all jobs the same general tools with the same overall potency/power as those that tanks are being given.

[Somnolence]

It is really funny how often im reminded that people have no idea what theyre looking at or are talking about when discussing this stuff. Like people don't even recognise cactbot which literally tells them what to do so they don't even have to remember mechanics this is literally just a group of people who have done this fight once maybe twice and now they have a plugin telling them what to do and with that plugin telling them what to do they can perfectly do mechanics and it shows that if you can perfectly do mechanics you do not need a healer because damage output in this game is determinent not consistent. Hell this happens every single raid tier its just been way faster than usual.

I do not think this argument has much to do with the feat. Such tools would allow them to brain afk the mechs more so they can focus on gameplay.

But the execution of the strat is not the hardest part, it would be planning out all what is necessary and when. I bet there were plenty of failed attempts.

As you can see from the video, some parts are too hard to heal (stack before Ion Cannons) so cover + invuln cheese is required to pass as well.

The feat is not doing this without healers, its figuring out how to do it without healers - and the problem is that it is even possible at all.

[NightHour]

There was zero uptime GCD healing by the PLD’s here, literally anyone who can parse purple can do this
And actually locking out healers isn’t the point anyway. The point is that if the PLD can do the healers job for them why do we have TWO healers overloaded with disgustingly overpowered healing

When nascent flash+SIO+DV is doing 80% of the healing in this log then why the actual f……. Does a skill as powerful as seraphism exist on a class that has a damage kit that looks like it’s designed around a healer that spends 95% of the time spamming succor

They give all this healing to WAR PLD but DRK gets a middle finger.