M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Rithy255]

I genuinely want to ask this question to those who think healers are fine and still have a place in the game: "Why are you threatened by healers asking for more?"

Healers asking for a better experience literally does not even affect you in any way if you think healers are fine now. All any fix would do is make the dissatisfied people happy while not affecting your own experience at all.

Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

[Supersnow845]

Because a lot of the arguments are to take away tools from non healer jobs.

As someone who likes Paladin, I enjoy that it has a lot of utility ect. A lot of things said here are asking to take stuff away from tanks, when they're already just slow dps with some support, I even personally want more protective/utility on tanks.

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

[Bobby66]

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG. I do not a pld alone can do healing more effectively as a healer it just so happens when you get a bunch of roles that have a degree of sustain and utility it can match what a healer can do.

[Jojoya]

Idk I always felt the purpose of the extra utility brought by other jobs like heals and rez's was less about making healers less important but to offer a means where if the healer dies it is GG.

Yet it has gone overboard to the point that tanks no longer need healers at all, and they don't need damage dealers unless there is a DPS check to beat that tank DPS can't handle.

If a tank dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect the tank quickly (if they haven't just used their Swiftcast), tank can provoke as soon as they're up and wipe is averted.

If a damage dealer dies, the healer has the ability to resurrect them quickly to contribute to any DPS check the party needs to pass to avoid a wipe.

If a healer dies, who is there to resurrect the healer? Either the party has RDM or SMN, or the healer remains dead.

The answer isn't to give other roles multiple tools to handle healing and mitigation. The answer is to give the other roles a tool to resurrect the healer so they can perform their role just as the healer is able to resurrect the other roles so they can do theirs.

That's not to say that the other roles should have no tools for healing and mitigation. But those tools should be rare with moderate length recast time (90-120 seconds) and should apply to self only (outside of tanks getting a party wide mitigation tool to use, which would be appropriate for their role).

The utility that damage dealers get should be related to dealing damage. Increase the damage done by self and party members. Debuff the boss to reduce their damage dealt and/or increase damage taken. I'm old school enough I would love to see crowd control make a comeback for some boss fights and having damage dealers responsible for that.

The job design team needs to step back and remember the point of each role in the trinity. Tanks generate enmity so the majority of incoming damage is directed at them, then mitigate the damage received so they can survive long enough to get needed healing from healers. Damage dealers deal damage to all enemies while doing their best to avoid avoidable damage. They likewise should be relying on healers to handle unavoidable damage plus any additional damage taken due to errors.

If they're going to keep giving a single role more and more tools then design encounters so the other roles are only relevant to speed of kill and not to success, then they need to get rid of the trinity entirely and give all jobs the same general tools with the same overall potency/power as those that tanks are being given.

[Rithy255]

Why do you believe your roles “utility” should include doing another roles job for them in a more effective way than the role itself does

If tomorrow they buffed the healers damage 30% above the tanks then gave them all various shades of 90% self mitigations with tiny CD’s and allowed for the facilitating of 4H4D clears with relative ease would you be happy with that

Doing another roles job for them isn’t utility

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

[Supersnow845]

Ok then I hope you're advocating for tanks only have provoke and healer should only know how to heal because DPS is the job of dps.

You can't see why it's sometimes fitting/healthy for certain roles to be able to do things outside their set category? funny thing is that jobs outside of healer's have always had healing tools, even on other games it can't be denied that a lot of roles have utility that Heal.

Am I saying Tanks & DPS should have full healer kits No, they don't the reason why you see tanks and DPS realistically solo content with a bunch of jobs that have a OGCD heal is because the actual in game checks are so low, If designing a few jobs with healing utility can replace both healer's why is it the other job's faults rather then the actual design of encounters and fights.

I wouldn't actually care if people cleared with 4 healers and 4 dps aslong as tanks were actually still the optimal pick, which last time I checked 99% of groups are still running healers, if 99% of groups were still running tanks and tanks felt fun still I wouldn't care.

It’s fitting for limited crossover of job responsibility. What you are missing is the fact the tanks heal better than the healers in 99% of circumstances. The type of damage profile 14 has is much better suited to the tanks style of healing than it is for the healers healing. If you have reached a point where the tanks are healing can better than the healers you have taken a step too far

There is also the fact there is no limited crossover that allows any other role to effectively tank. It isn’t equitable crossover, it’s tanks doing everyone else’s job disguised as equitable crossover

The answer to that might be to up the damage or to nerf sustain, but only one of those options affects all content, the other only affects savage

[Ayche]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

[Supersnow845]

There is some real "Role fundamentalism" going on.
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet"
The ability to help others over "role lines" is a good thing, it gives a sense of comradery. When a monk player activates the unsolicited mantra during a situation where people are taking a lot of damage, is your response to that "He wants to help me heal the group" or "He has no trust in me, he used mantra because he thinks I will fail." You could make Divine Veil not stack with itself I guess, but if you nerf Mantra down to like 2% bonus healing, the response for player is most likely just to forget about it and we lose that piece of cooperation forever.

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

[Ayche]

Notice how you used an example that literally nobody has ever argued is egregious to prove a point nobody ever made

Mantra is an example of a good support skill…..you know why……..because it’s an actual SUPPORT skill in that it doesn’t do anything if the healers don’t take advantage of it. Mantra is totally fine, good even, minne, paen even the interaction waltz has where its two heals with one on you one on your dance partner.

The problem is heals like SIO that I’d like to remind everyone is a stronger heal than literally any of the healers can put out in terms of raw HPS outside of macrocosmos shenanigans and has half the CD of macrocosmos and heals like bloodwhetting or HS that aren’t just “oh I’ll give the healer a little breathing room” instead being “with these I don’t need the healer at all”

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

[Supersnow845]

I did not want to reply to anyone in particular, only to the general vibe of the thread.

Or we could even say the general vibe of the forums since the strike flared up. Like where is the line is to be drawn for reciprocative actions? I am pressing Divine Veil in hopes that I made a difference and let people survive some big damage spike. If they are not topped up to take it, how big of an impact am I allowed to have? Should they still die because I was stepping over the role lines and it is none of my business? People have also suggested consolidating mitigations from other jobs to healers so do I keep Passage of Arms and reprisal? I wouldn't like that either, I want to feel like a part of the effort.

I wouldn't want to lose Holy Sheltron healing either, because I like having agency over my own health when taking damage. DRK's TBN is a fun ability exactly because it feels like pushing back against the tide of damage frequently instead of just passively soaking damage. I actually switched from DRK to PLD mostly because I like the feeling of the party abilities more on Paladin than with DRK where dark messenger just felt like a big "eh".

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

Passage of arms and reprisal- AOE mitigations, totally fine, they have no healing effects

Holy Shelton- in my opinion it’s too much healing but let’s leave that aside as personal taste. Let’s look at PLD’s two other main methods of healing; intervention and rotational healing. A PLD presses Holy Spirit/holy circle about 3 times per minute and does a confitier combo for 7 400 potency heals per minute of which you have no agency over, you do then because it’s a DPS gain to press them. Then intervention skill used to protect others, why does this skill also heal the other person (nascent flash and HOC are the same) when it’s on such a short CD and has no downside to the PLD besides robbing you of the ability to cast your own mitigation for the next 20 seconds

Overlap of the roles can be good if it’s balanced well, but HS/NF/DV/HOC/SIO are not well balanced because they are healer level healing CD’s with zero drawbacks to the tank. You can see this in the reverse in that the strongest free single target mitigation the healers can give to the tanks is 15% aquaveil

Sharing of some measure of role responsibility is fine (which is why TBN is perfectly fine being targetable), the rest of the tanks just take it 15 steps too far