Add different type of monsters attacks

[Mikey_R]

I mean, intent of the OP aside there might still be something in there to be discussed. Even a dumpster fire might have something valuable inside if you look hard enough lol.

The problem with the OP is they see a system in another game, think, I like that, put in FFXIV, but never think about how that affects FFXIV. Just slap a random system in there and hope it fits.

We already have physical and magical damage so maybe they could something more with that? At this point the distinction barely exists anymore outside of the few remaining type-specific defensive abilities like Dark Mind, Fey Illumination or Magick Barrier.

But it didn't really work in the past. If we go back to HW, DRK was the magic tank and PLD was the physical tank. With the majority of damage, especially raidwides and tank busters, being magical, it skewed the preferred tank to DRK (even before you take into account DRK's higher DPS).

Now, bringing things back to more recent times, if we were to adopt this idea, there are 2 ways it could be done.

1. Split the tanks and have 2 physical tanks and 2 magic tanks. This would, in theory, mean one set of tanks is better than another in a given fight, however, we also know that fights are designed so that all tanks can clear all content. This by necessity means the physical tanks can mitigate damage in the magic heavy fights and vice versa. This creates a potential...problem. If the extra mitigation power doesn't prevent someone from using a resource, then that extra mitigation is functionally useless, if it does, that is when it will tip the scales in favour of the 'right tank pair'. Then it is a case of how much it benefits the party.

This also creates a problem in the fact you have Split the tanks into 2 preferred parties, one physical based, one magic based. of course, there might be fights where they mix up the damage more, so you are better off having one magic and one physical.

2. The other way is giving all tanks a mixed suite of physical and magical mitigation. Without then massively bloating the mitigation kit, you would necessarily have to split it and have a physical and magical variant for each. Take PLD for example, rather than the 5 personal mitigations they currently have (Rampart, Guardian, Bulwark, Holy Sheltron and Hallowed Ground), you would half it and make some magic and some physical. Here is Physical Guardian and here is Magical Guardian.

Going onto raidwides, you would need 2 for every job, one for physical one for magical.

Then we have the problem of shields. Using Guardian again, it gives PLD a 1000 potency shield. Shields are damage independent, so they absorb both types. This would mean tanks that had shields would get more mitigation power over all damage types.

As you can tell, more and more balancing issues come into play when you start to dig deeper. This is especially true when people want DRK and GNB raidwide mitigations to have a physical damage mitigation component (or just reduce all damage) and Dark Mind to also have something for Physical damage (just as Camouflage has something small for magical attacks). Also, bear in mind, this is for 2 damage types, I don't even want to think about the mess that would be OPs suggestion.

People might disagree with things I have said, or they don't care about any differences, which is fine. I am just illustrating things that need to be thought about when you want to design a mitigation kit for the tanks.

[dspguy]

We play a game where we cast fire-based spells on fire-based enemies for damage. I think we expect too much for anything else.

[Tunda]

I mean, intent of the OP aside there might still be something in there to be discussed. Even a dumpster fire might have something valuable inside if you look hard enough lol.

We already have physical and magical damage so maybe they could something more with that? At this point the distinction barely exists anymore outside of the few remaining type-specific defensive abilities like Dark Mind, Fey Illumination or Magick Barrier.

Then again, the fact they’ve all but moved away from that distinction means at this point maybe it would be better if they just removed the distinction entirely? Though, that’s not as fun I’d say

People can't understand that this form is all about discussion but it feels like some people in this community take things too personal.. I wish I can play FFXIV with community like Monster Hunter.. they are more open about discussions and feedback..

regarding the point of that' why developers get rid of this system yeah they get rid of a lot of systems that isn't bad for the game but developer choose to remove it like:
- Dark knight stormblood: yeah it was OP but what about the current warrior? i don't think there is a difference between then and now.
- Mana management: it is black mage and dark knight duty in this game to keep using the second most important recourse in RPG games which all jobs should have done it.

a lot of other systems developer choose to remove it to simplify game even more.. now we reach to the point where FFXIV jobs are in a such bad state.

We play a game where we cast fire-based spells on fire-based enemies for damage. I think we expect too much for anything else.

I understand your point but that isn't what I was talking about..

take it for example this:

as simple as auto attacks of mobs and monsters, there is no verity for it, playing as a tank I blindly use any mitigation I have after catching 2 groups of mobs, and still my HP almost full

you can simply have red Icon on monsters that means this monster type is Strength, as a tank how to mitigate their attacks? use speed type of mitigation

Speed > Strength
Strength > Technique
Technique > Speed

these type of systems will make players not blindly pressing 40% mitigation for next attack.

[Tunda]

The problem with the OP is they see a system in another game, think, I like that, put in FFXIV, but never think about how that affects FFXIV. Just slap a random system in there and hope it fits.

As if FFXIV a standalone game?

love it or hate it FFXIV is WoW clone with almost 80% gameplay identicality.. If we apply your logic then we could have FF11 systems in FFXIV
and that's not bad.. it is important to take notes from other games.

FFXIV removed this system because developer can't figure out how to implement it.. like other system they get rid of it (mana management) as I said before.

for RPG game first and MMO second it is really bad not having verity of RPG system.

just to simplify my Idea

1. Split the tanks and have 2 physical tanks and 2 magic tanks. This would, in theory, mean one set of tanks is better than another in a given fight, however, we also know that fights are designed so that all tanks can clear all content. This by necessity means the physical tanks can mitigate damage in the magic heavy fights and vice versa. This creates a potential...problem. If the extra mitigation power doesn't prevent someone from using a resource, then that extra mitigation is functionally useless, if it does, that is when it will tip the scales in favour of the 'right tank pair'. Then it is a case of how much it benefits the party.

I can see this will not work in any game from miles away.. why there is a job that can mitigate 1 type of attack? it isn't reasonable

all tanks should mitigate all type of attacks.. and there should be a reward system for it.. if it done successfully it should feel good

[Shurrikhan]

As if FFXIV a standalone game?

love it or hate it FFXIV is WoW clone with almost 80% gameplay identicality.. If we apply your logic then we could have FF11 systems in FFXIV
and that's not bad.. it is important to take notes from other games.

It's important to take notes only in a manner mindful of their sources' context, which you repeatedly fail to do.

I can see this will not work in any game from miles away.. why there is a job that can mitigate 1 type of attack? it isn't reasonable

You've again taken out of its context a quote that specifically shows the problems of any such system while simply laying out what all is possible... to feign that another poster suggested only and exactly what they had just critiqued.

[Mikey_R]

As if FFXIV a standalone game?

It is though, this is why you cannot just take a system from one game and place it into FFXIV. It might play similar to another game, but you still cannot just take systems as it is in the parts where they aren't similar that causes problems.

To be clear, you can take ideas from other games, however you necessarily need to adapt said system for FFXIV.

I can see this will not work in any game from miles away.. why there is a job that can mitigate 1 type of attack? it isn't reasonable

So why did you not comment on my second point where I go though a design where they DO have all mitigation? Or is it that you didn't properly read the post and skipped over it?

To be clear, I have other comments past what I have already stated, which to me seems I have thought about this and potential impacts more than you currently have.

And, just to avoid any sort of doubt, currently comments revolve around dungeon pulls and boss fight design, which then leads into questions about the cooldown and strength of these mitigations and whether other mitigation exists. This is the surface, these do go deeper, just to be clear.

[Tunda]

It is though, this is why you cannot just take a system from one game and place it into FFXIV. It might play similar to another game, but you still cannot just take systems as it is in the parts where they aren't similar that causes problems.

To be clear, you can take ideas from other games, however you necessarily need to adapt said system for FFXIV.[/HB]

FFXIV is not a standalone game it is a copy cat of WoW

if WoW didn't exist we would see FFXI part 2

this is a room for discussion people have the freedom to say what they want if you don't like other people opinion you shouldn't agree and you shouldn't be rude

[Mikey_R]

FFXIV is not a standalone game it is a copy cat of WoW

if WoW didn't exist we would see FFXI part 2

this is a room for discussion people have the freedom to say what they want if you don't like other people opinion you shouldn't agree and you shouldn't be rude

With differences.

Yup.

You can say what you want, I can say my opinion on what you say, that is how a discussion works. I didn't like your opinion, I shared my thoughts on your opinion, you don't seem to want to reciprocate.

As for the rude, the only thing I have said that could even be remotely considered rude is when I pointed out your common theme of taking ideas from other games, and just expecting them to fit into FFXIV without thought. Which, is just an observation more than anything.

[Shurrikhan]

FFXIV is not a standalone game it is a copy cat of WoW

if WoW didn't exist we would see FFXI part 2

this is a room for discussion people have the freedom to say what they want if you don't like other people opinion you shouldn't agree and you shouldn't be rude

It's neither a direct copy of WoW nor does standalone mean "wholly original" / "not identifiably derivative".

We already saw much of what your Final Fantasy XI Part 2: With Some Small Twists would look like (1.x), but it didn't take WoW alone nor specifically to get us out of it, nor was even that a carbon-copy of XI not a game XI systems could be dropped directly into. Heck, had they had more than 30% Yoshida's available team or budget to begin with, wed likely have seen greater difference from XI rather than all the more similarity to it.

Finally, just as you have the right to, however wrongly, make fallacious or nonsensical claims, others have the right to point out how and why they are wrong. Such is not an attack on your underlying opinions or values, but merely easy discussion away from misinformation, conflation, lack of foresight towards even obvious and immediate concerns, etc.

As for being rude, someone who so routinely misquotes anyone of opposing opinion to pretend they've held the exact opposite of their actual positions has no moral high ground and does not not inspire confidence that constructive discussion with them is even possible.

[Ramiee]

Well considering they can't balance a physical/magical split right now I'd say hold off from that until they figure that out