We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Tunda]

Locking “true DPS” to 1 slot out of 4 or 2 out of 8 would be a mess in this game, the game already suffers from supports (as in tanks and healers) being 50% of the party while being like 25% of the playerbase

I could see 1/1/2/1 maybe working but it would mess up a lot of the game’s content to rebalance everything from 4/8/24 to 5/10/30

I’d also imagine people who play classes like BRD and DNC like a DPS wouldn’t like being forced into being supports

DNC and bard is already a support job

The self dps of them are so low to the point where some tanks could achieve their damage

It is so impiguise to play dps job then you find out the job is actually a support

That what happened to me when I start playing ffxiv as archer

Bard as support job didn't fit me so I immediately change the class

[Supersnow845]

DNC and bard is already a support job

The self dps of them are so low to the point where some tanks could achieve their damage

It is so impiguise to play dps job then you find out the job is actually a support

That what happened to me when I start playing ffxiv as archer

Bard as support job didn't fit me so I immediately change the class

DNC and BRD both “support” in the sense they have large buffs that contribute to their rDPS but also have effects that increase their pDPS, they are still 75% carried by their pDPS. If this is your idea of support then you really aren’t changing anything except enforcing 2 selfish jobs and 2 “support jobs” as we currently know them (ie jobs that have non interactive raid buffs they just press because they exist). If you do it this way you need to rip raid buffs out of some jobs that have them because right now it’s 4/9 in favour of raid buffs

True support (ie near zero pDPS potentially zero rDPS as well built entirely around buffs, support and debuffs is an entirely different thing

[Tunda]

DNC and BRD both “support” in the sense they have large buffs that contribute to their rDPS but also have effects that increase their pDPS, they are still 75% carried by their pDPS. If this is your idea of support then you really aren’t changing anything except enforcing 2 selfish jobs and 2 “support jobs” as we currently know them (ie jobs that have non interactive raid buffs they just press because they exist). If you do it this way you need to rip raid buffs out of some jobs that have them because right now it’s 4/9 in favour of raid buffs

True support (ie near zero pDPS potentially zero rDPS as well built entirely around buffs, support and debuffs is an entirely different thing

We don't need true support

We learn from the past true healers are boring 1 dot and 1 glare isn't fun

It is OK to mix and match 2 kits in 1 job as tanks for example

Paladin / warrior / gunbreaker
Are great in their kit 50% dps and 50% tank skills with some party utility

We don't want to replicate healers situation again..
It is OK to have some dpa rotation with 50% support kit

[Shurrikhan]

DNC and bard is already a support job

Dancer's gameplay is no more that of a Support than is, say, Monk. Unless playing in a composition where it's optimal to swap your Closed Position partner about, you just set your stance pre-combat and the rest is automatic. Heck, if outside of those comps you don't count what can be used precombat anyways, Monk has more support tools (AoE heal, AoE healing taken increase, AoE damage increase, personal damage increased from party attacks) and consideration therearound.

Bard? Same number of support abilities, just trading the direct heal for a dispel. The songs are used simply for their contribution to Soul Voice and their Repertoire bonuses.

Support makes up a small portion of either's numeric performance and a far, far smaller portion of the player's skill's influence on that performance. Neither is a Support. They're just DPS with a few random support skills (far less than a HW NIN, Stormblood Summoner, and no more, arguably, than even an ARR BLM, etc.).

How is that any different from what we have now though, if healers die and there’s no RDM/SMN present it’s a wipe and that’s that (unless tank decides to solo it). Jobs like Bard and Dancer having actual healing and utility and not just ‘raid buffs’ would help healers by reducing the pressure, not somehow make them harder

At most, because --given how much of the healer kit is a waste already-- if the "Support" can then meet healing requirements more precisely (i.e., with less excess) while having higher damage, it will be harder to even find a party as a healer.

Any effective cure potency per minute that you are balanced around but locked into makes you a worse choice when it goes to waste, such that if you offer a category of healing-capable jobs that have a lower hps ceiling but higher damage, you simply go from their being inferior when requirements are too high for them to superior when healers' cp output is too high for the content (under typical player familiarity and gear at that time).

To me, the solution then is to simply make healers more flexible so that their maximum theoretical DPS is quite a bit nearer that of DPS but comes at greater cost to healing potential and heals at greater cost to DPS (to about the same result when using a couple at-cost heals per minute, but higher dps otherwise for having converted the would-be excessive oGCD healing into something of use), but alas, what's a solution without systemic convolution (creating new roles out of what should simply be a spectrum, therefore greatly splitting and thereby constraining thematic options for each job)?

[Tunda]

Dancer's gameplay is no more that of a Support than is, say, Monk. Unless playing in a composition where it's optimal to swap your Closed Position partner about, you just set your stance pre-combat and the rest is automatic. Heck, if outside of those comps you don't count what can be used precombat anyways, Monk has more support tools (AoE heal, AoE healing taken increase, AoE damage increase, personal damage increased from party attacks) and consideration therearound.

Bard? Same number of support abilities, just trading the direct heal for a dispel. The songs are used simply for their contribution to Soul Voice and their Repertoire bonuses.

Support makes up a small portion of either's numeric performance and a far, far smaller portion of the player's skill's influence on that performance. Neither is a Support. They're just DPS with a few random support skills (far less than a HW NIN, Stormblood Summoner, and no more, arguably, than even an ARR BLM, etc.).



At most, because --given how much of the healer kit is a waste already-- if the "Support" can then meet healing requirements more precisely (i.e., with less excess) while having higher damage, it will be harder to even find a party as a healer.

Any effective cure potency per minute that you are balanced around but locked into makes you a worse choice when it goes to waste, such that if you offer a category of healing-capable jobs that have a lower hps ceiling but higher damage, you simply go from their being inferior when requirements are too high for them to superior when healers' cp output is too high for the content (under typical player familiarity and gear at that time).

To me, the solution then is to simply make healers more flexible so that their maximum theoretical DPS is quite a bit nearer that of DPS but comes at greater cost to healing potential and heals at greater cost to DPS (to about the same result when using a couple at-cost heals per minute, but higher dps otherwise for having converted the would-be excessive oGCD healing into something of use), but alas, what's a solution without systemic convolution (creating new roles out of what should simply be a spectrum, therefore greatly splitting and thereby constraining thematic options for each job)?

There are instances when we don't require healer in dawntrail
This issue exist and there is no salvation to it

But we have clear issue and clear solution

Supports dps jobs are just better in all cases

Just see parties who kill savage first
All the jobs they take are support some of parties have 4 rez jobs
That means it is optimal to play 2 support 2 healer 2 dps 2 tank
This is the truth

[Shurrikhan]

There are instances when we don't require healer in dawntrail
This issue exist and there is no salvation to it

I'm aware. But someone bleeding isn't a reason to shoot them.

Supports dps jobs are just better in all cases

No. They're better than an alternative when the possible average clear speed with an otherwise optimal party is better with them than the alternative. For short, though, without any utility*, a job with "support" is better than jobs without support when it produces more rDPS+aDPS, and non-redundant rHPS+aHPS than its competing option(s). I.e., when its straight-up more powerful.

No, raid buffs should not even be thought of as utility; if anything they further constrain the party, therefore creating a loss to utility (difficult-to-quantify contribution towards an encounter's ultimate goal), in this case by reducing opportunities to push out a bit more relative potency over the fight as compared to less constrained means of reaching the same rDPS).

If neither its likely nor theoretical value in offensive or sustain is difficult to quantify for a given composition, there is no more reason to call it "utility" than to call Heavy Swing or Cure "utility"; it's just damage or sustain, respectively.

A final note: rDPS alone never tells you something's full strength. If something completely lacks any indirect contribution, then aDPS will give you a basically full picture, but rDPS will never do so, since it completely (and purposely) removes how well that job makes use of others' buffs.

But we have clear issue and clear solution

Your "clear issue" is, judging from your discussion of it, poorly understood, and your "clear solution" would require mangle the identities of a handful of jobs, constraining job identity around an arbitrary and unnecessary bimodal (degree of indirect contribution), and a tremendous amount of developer work for... more than likely a worse result for each issue you've used as reason to make said suggestion.

That means it is optimal to play 2 support 2 healer 2 dps 2 tank
This is the truth

You're both somewhat misunderstanding and overcomplicating the matter.

A job that contributes a portion of its rDPS through a single other player will always pair best with the best possible exploiter of its finite (highest 20s per 120s burst) and constant (highest would-be aDPS overall) buffs. Because that's just math.
Apart from that, you're just following Role stat bonuses, whoever's generally strongest, and equilibrium (the more relative potency per minute there is to buff, the more each scalar is worth, but --assuming balance-- the more jobs with scalars you have, the less original potency you can bring).

We tend to take Viper because it's OP. Because Viper is OP, or if for whatever reason the static has a SAM or BLM, Dancer is competitive for the single Ranger we're forced to take, but otherwise we take Bard... because, atop any extra utility, it's simply brings more total damage than MCH. Etc., etc.

That said, the 2/2/2/2 assumption you have isn't particularly accurate right now, let alone historically:

• 4 support-heavy DPS has at times been stronger (old NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD). Taking just 1 support-heavy DPS job has, at other times, been strongest.
• Even now, unless you consider both MNK and PIC "support" jobs, we don't tend towards 2/2/2/2 for the fastest runs at time of writing.

There is no hard 2/2/2/2 rule, just the wax and wane of balance and some basic math, ultimately bounded by bonuses to primary stat and Limit Gauge generation.

[Tunda]

snip

I disagree..
rDPS is the most important calculation method if you want to see if job performance,

I would love to play job has higher rDPS than other jobs it is better for party and kill

Who decide if it is hard work or not? What if it is not?

You are not in place of developers to judge, it is ok to have opinions in this form even u don't agree with,
--

regarding party composition:

If you look at fastest 5 clears for this savage you will notice something: All parties dps are supports!! why ?

because support is too OP doing 2 things at once: PCT, RDM, SMN, NIN, BRD, exc
Why warrior too? shake it off
Why Astro? card system

it clearly an issue that we see more pure jobs will suffer from utility jobs

2/2/2/2 maybe isn't good but we could see 4 dps / 2 support / 2 healer / 2 tank, I dont know what is better but I know that selfish DPS is suffering from utility jobs that do less 2% of their damage

[Shurrikhan]

I disagree..
rDPS is the most important calculation method if you want to see if job performance

There is no single metric by which to account for the performance of any job that brings part of its contribution through buffing its raid. There is a single metric from which we can, over enough parses across varying contributions when those compositions are roughly balanced already, compare the performance of jobs who do not do so, but it isn't rDPS.

For every buff by which someone contributes varyingly towards the rest of the party, there are also varying degrees to which other jobs exploit that buff and therefore give the buffer their rDPS. Because of this, to know how much, say, a Dancer, can maximally bring, we need also to compare the raw damage of its potential dance partners under roughly the same conditions, or aDPS across a number of parses large enough to be less dependent on the specific composition.

While that number needed can then be quite large, exactly the same can be said of rDPS. But while rDPS necessarily and badly misrepresents the value of every job without a buff, it still doesn't correctly represent the value even of those who give more value via their buffs than they receive from others' buffs.

You use both. Both aDPS and rDPS, while also slightly mindful of the gap between aDPS and raw DPS of single-target buff recipients when considering the actual value of said buffers or their buffs best users in a composition with those buffers.

I would love to play job has higher rDPS than other jobs it is better for party and kill

Which, given that you seem to think rDPS just clearly and cleanly means "amount of value", was my point. People tend to whatever produces the best value for the amount of effort they're willing to put in, regardless of whether it has more or fewer support actions or a greater or lesser portion of its value wrapped up in said support.

If you look at fastest 5 clears for this savage you will notice something: All parties dps are supports!! why ?

Let's say we consider jobs that provide far more value by exploiting others' buffs than by giving out their own as "support" any time they give out at least one damage buff or carry at least one emergency external tool like a resurrection skill, such that there are only 3 non-support DPS in the whole game (SAM, VPR, BLM)...
...Even then, your claim is objectively incorrect.

Black Cat: MNK, SAM, BRD, PIC; SAM, VPR, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, PIC; NIN, SAM, DNC, PIC
B. Lovely: RPR, VPR, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, BLM; MNK, SAM, BRD, PIC; SAM, RPR, DNC, PIC

Across the top 9 for Brute Bomber, we see a SAM and/or VPR in each party, with an "all support" party (RPR, MNK, BRD, PIC) not appearing until place #10.
The only one to have an "all support" comp in the top 8 at time of writing --and at great stretch of the term "support"-- is M4 (again with MNK, RPR, BRD, PIC).
_____________________

No, really, go and look at the actual data. In doing so, you might even find a much larger takeaway worth noting: that PIC was used in 31 of 40 fastest runs across the game. Compare that to VPR's 22 of 40 despite being equally OP relative to its role (but that role being bigger) and similarly and new job... and you'll start to see what kinds of job push-outs are actually happening, such as PIC just being a straight better BLM 99% of the time. (VPR, btw, similarly pushes out NIN --and to a lesser extent RPR, DRG, and nearly MNK-- for simply sharing a gear class with NIN but being far superior to it.)

it clearly an issue that we see more pure jobs will suffer from utility jobs

No, they suffer when they generate less party value (especially, per party effort invested) -- i.e., when they're undertuned. But that's it. The mere existence of support jobs does not push out non-support jobs. Being undertuned pushes out jobs. In general. Regardless of portion of indirect contribution. Regardless of degree of support tools.

Requiring but capping "support" jobs helps nothing outside of increasing queue times for those who can only make themselves do work while waiting on a duty to pop. Which, to be clear, is generally bad for the rest of us.

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

If by "first" you mean "first to clear":

"No BLM": BLM parties were the third to clear M1S, fourth to clear M2S, first to clear M4S, lagging behind (swapping briefly to PIC, most likely) only on M3S (32nd clear).

"Few VPR and SAM": In the third clear, and in roughly half of first 20 clears thereafter of M1S. 6th clear, and in roughly half the top 20 thereafter of M2S. Second clear of M3S, third clear of M4S, etc. VPR, especially is slightly overrepresented even in early clears.
______________________

If by "first" you mean "nearest first place (in speed)":

"No BLM": At time of writing, there is a BLM in the top 7 of M1S, top 3 of M2S, top 6 of M3S, and top 5 of M4S. There are 7 BLMs overall, making up 7 of 9 non-PIC caster choices in the top 10s of each run (40 runs total).

"Few VPR and SAM": VPR is in 22 of 40 top-10s across M1S-M4S. SAM is in 14 of 40. In a random distribution assuming 2 melee DPS per raid, we'd have expected to see 13 of each. Both SAM and VPR are represented in the top runs far more often than more supportive Melee jobs like DRG (6) or NIN (5).

Seriously, look at the data before making claims on it.

[Tunda]

snip

Queue time issue isn't because we have 3 roles..
Absolutely not

the design of tanks and healers are boring and braindead that's why.. Healers and Tanks are pushed from this and I am one of them.

We have 4 healers have the same kit
We have tanks are braindead, person with 3 braincells can play any tank (Dark knight is exception because it has a bad design and less mitigation)

Queue problem isn't related to how many roles but with how much they are unique.. if you play PLD you play 70% of gunbreaker already, DRK and WAR too

Balancing is the issue now I don't mind all DPS do same damage as BLM but with no utilities, you can't admit the fact of DPS having utility is better than DPS with no utility but do 2% more dmg

Assuming you are taking data from this savage race, still my assumption is correct

5/16 jobs are selfish
6/20 jobs are selfish

But why? why not at least 50% of DPS jobs taken are selfish DPS? even with your data that you provided still my point is correct
8 of the jobs has been taken as selfish job is SAM and the other 3 are VPR and BLM, it is very clear that Selfish DPS jobs are the minority in this game and that is the problem.

Utility breaks the game even more and steal the identity of jobs being selfish and greedy to DPS and sub healer or sub buffer jobs

In this way BLM and Viper will still minority as we see them now..

I will take PCT/MNK/RPR over BLM and VPR all day to savage with 2% less DPS and 5% party damage increase
I will take BRD/DNC over MCH all day


You are filtering fights based on specific fight that's why you got the wrong data.. try to filter all fights job performance you will get a better picture of what is the current state of job rDPS