We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Tunda]

I feel like people forget that everything turns into rDPS in the end.

If Phys Ranged (outsourced contributions accounted) ends up being so far compared to PCT and BLM, then people play them just because they a) like the job play/aesthetics or b) have a desirable non-dmg utility. Imagine if the !% party composition slot didn't exist, I wonder how many people would bench DNC/BRD/MCH because yes, they do have strong defensive group actions, but those get obsolete very fast as people get more vitality and the healers get more gear or the SMN/RDM rezzes getting useless because people groups don't need that anymore for reclears.

While I like the idea of a support role (purple icon anybody?), I feel it's too much hassle for them to consider that. But the idea of the Phys Ranged becoming the 'bearer' of the 2min meta would certainly make their spot more valuable. Yes, the impact is bigger if they are dead during the 2min marks, but that isn't a big issue since dps only matters when you're getting to see enrage reliably anyway. Every other action that used to make part of the 2min meta (Brotherhood, Divination), could be repurposed into something else.

That would leave just the RDM/SMN problem of their dps being taxed on the rez, and rather than just deleting it, I'd either make the rez available to everyone via a Phoenix Down consumable OR make Ressurection and Verraise have a 3min recast time.

Rez could be part of support jobs kit

If there is a skill tree we could achieve that 1 job could fit in 2 roles but I don't think so

[CaptainLagbeard]

Phys Ranged is supposed to be the "support", though MCH has been since Stormblood kinda just a pure DPS, BRD songs bonuses are kinda small and DNC only really significantly buffs their dance partner...

[Tunda]

Phys Ranged is supposed to be the "support", though MCH has been since Stormblood kinda just a pure DPS, BRD songs bonuses are kinda small and DNC only really significantly buffs their dance partner...

Support shouldn't be in 1 sub role

There should be melee support range support magical support

Machinist isn't fit as support it should full fledge selfish dps with inspiration of their kit in PVP

Red mage should be support job
Summon could fit with their current kit

Monk fit easily


Dnc bard is already support jobs

[royox]

True. The solution should be eliminating all the utility from the DPS jobs and leave all the utility for BRD and DNC. Maybe create 2 more DPS with mostly utility (one Magical and one Melee).

But 2bh, I always though that the core of the problem is to have 3 main roles (tank, healer, dps). If we had Tank, Healer, Buff/Debuffer, DPS it would be solved.

[Tunda]

True. The solution should be eliminating all the utility from the DPS jobs and leave all the utility for BRD and DNC. Maybe create 2 more DPS with mostly utility (one Magical and one Melee).

But 2bh, I always though that the core of the problem is to have 3 main roles (tank, healer, dps). If we had Tank, Healer, Buff/Debuffer, DPS it would be solved.

Giving utility skills to healers and tanks could solve the problem but not at all

We have dance and bard who has support kit where they should go?
They are not selfish dps
They are not healers

Not only them but red mage and summoner having rez as selfish dps?
This 100% will mess with the dps design

Weather we remove all utilities and rez from dps and reworking 2 jobs
Or create support role to fill the gap

There is no 100% currect solution but there is a better solution

[royox]

Giving utility skills to healers and tanks could solve the problem but not at all

We have dance and bard who has support kit where they should go?
They are not selfish dps
They are not healers

Not only them but red mage and summoner having rez as selfish dps?
This 100% will mess with the dps design

Weather we remove all utilities and rez from dps and reworking 2 jobs
Or create support role to fill the gap

There is no 100% currect solution but there is a better solution

I'm asking from a real position of "i don't understand". What's wrong with SMN and RDM being able to rez? I've been a SMN main since...omg since 2.0 and I always considered that fact just a normal thing...? It's nice to have yet another chance to push a try when both healers die by ressing one or both of them sacrificing most of my own MP and dps uptime.

If something, I think the game needs to have more personality in the jobs and give each of them more stuff that the others don't have.

[Tunda]

I'm asking from a real position of "i don't understand". What's wrong with SMN and RDM being able to rez? I've been a SMN main since...omg since 2.0 and I always considered that fact just a normal thing...? It's nice to have yet another chance to push a try when both healers die by ressing one or both of them sacrificing most of my own MP and dps uptime.

If something, I think the game needs to have more personality in the jobs and give each of them more stuff that the others don't have.

The problem is developers thinks that overpowered and for that reason they nerfed SMN damage below any caster or melee dps job by a margin

[Shurrikhan]

Missed this post before, somehow, but...

Support shouldn't be in 1 sub role

There should be melee support range support magical support

Then, done. We're there. Mission accomplished.

You can increase the extent to which the jobs depend on others to get direct (easily attributed on logs) or situational (not attributed on logs) rDPS value, but you'd merely be expanding what's already there. And that much I'd be fine with, so long as it comes at cost as to keep largely situational tools largely just situational whatever cost to core or DPS buttons to suit that purpose is made up for via increased button-efficiency across the prior kit.

However, there is zero need to create a new role for that express purpose. Doing so would just further homogenize any and every DPS you don't move into this new category by pruning their unique utilities and make jobs previously mostly independent necessarily be relegated to far greater dependence on others and on contexts through that flex-role.

It also hinges on there being more damage than tanks and healers can handle. That is not the case now and, more importantly, is not likely ever to be the case. While an emergency rez has made some sense to spread elsewhere, adding enough damage for a flex role not to be avoided (or taken only for the stat bonus) would only increase the failure points that the devs have made constant, steady changes to flatten out those potential points of failures and/or would worsen the redundancy already painful among tanks' and healers' kits.

But 2bh, I always though that the core of the problem is to have 3 main roles (tank, healer, dps). If we had Tank, Healer, Buff/Debuffer, DPS it would be solved.

How?

So long as the fight ends from reducing the enemy's HP to 0, a buffer/debuffer still ultimately just produces additional dps, and typically in a more direct / less involved form than tanks or healers do (by keeping alive those who can deal the most damage over time).

That's true even if they provide a novel buff that is related neither to healing nor tanking: Grant a player Sprint? That does nothing unless it saves them uptime, and if it that uptime doesn't make the difference between life or death, then it simply grants an extra GCD's difference between average potency per GCD and that of their filler mobile/ranged option.

All adding a fourth role would do is to say "Tanks, Healers, DPS... no more (de)buffs for you." Imagine what you will for cool (de)buffer jobs, but... they're still ultimately going to just be...

• DPS,
• those with kit to manipulate mob positioning, targeting, and effectiveness to increase the raid's overall DPS efficiency including through damage avoided and at-cost heals thereby spared ("Tanks"), or
• with kit centered around keeping the raid alive to keep dealing damage where the amount of extra uptime or reduced risk for such increases the average clear speed beyond what would be possible without them ("Healers").

Any of the cool shit you can imagine from having a very Support-esque job... you can have regardless of whether you quarantine that to a new, separate role.

You just can't make too much of its contribution come from unscaled target counts (all single-target, favoring Light Party play and greatly limiting what comps you can max out your value in... or all AoE, thereby requiring an 8-man party to see full value and leaving you comparatively neutered in 4-man content).

VPR is great and balance as Selfish DPS,
and I think all Selfish DPS should be in the same as VPR.

Then why did you repeatedly claim it needed help?

SAM is also balance as selfish DPS, and from my analysis I think some players who enjoys samurai switch to VPR after its release because how fast and fluent the job is

What evidence would tell you the exact gameplay reasons for someone swapping... to a higher-performing job?

sadly PCT/MNK/RPR cannot be balance in this game with their utility

Yes, they can be. MNK and RPR very frequently have been balanced just fine around the other melee.

VPR and PIC are overpowered outliers simply because the devs overly hesitate to rein back what's OP and will typically misjudge the in-practice output changes caused by their reworks.

[Tunda]

snip.

How do you know RPR/MNK are balance?

Do you really think rDPS is enough to judge?

these 2 jobs provide more than DPS
they provide Raid Wide Healing and Regen and this isn't calculated in rDPS,

also RPR party regen is almost as strong as shake it off from warrior

you cannot judge these jobs are balance when you only value rDPS for jobs that do more than just DPS.

VPR isn't overtuned it is perfect maybe nerf 1% to 2% maximum but still balance..
BLM isn't, PCT isn't in reversive way.

PCT have 400 potency party wide healing and this isn't calculated in rDPS because it is utility skill.. how do you calculate this? rDPS isn't a judge nor aDPS

Adding support role will not make balance but will jobs makes sense..
Summoner having 5 healing and shielding skills isn't realistic for DPS job
RDM have literally Healing GCD in their kit says something no?
BRD, DNC having 30% to 50% of their kit as utility isn't really a support jobs?
MNK/RPR have fewer utility skills but it is very impactful in in fights

BLM/VPR/SAM is the only true DPS jobs in this game

we are not asking for something isn't logical here weather you remove utility or make it some person job to do it.

[Shurrikhan]

How do you know RPR/MNK are balance?

I didn't say they are. I said they have been, as contrary to your claim that it is impossible to balance DPS so long as any have a raidbuff.

Do you really think rDPS is enough to judge?

I already explained in detail why it isn't.

VPR isn't overtuned it is perfect

It outperforms all other DPS classes, including all "selfish" DPS classes, even including those in direct competition (e.g., SAM) and those under tighter role competition constraints (e.g., BLM). Remember, SAM and BLM offer nothing else, and BLM comes at greater opportunity cost to bring.

By a wholly classic definition of "overtuned", Viper is objectively overtuned.

As for making mountains out of molehill utility...

Monk's single heal per 90 seconds does not sufficiently compensate for Viper's 5.6% output lead over it (at 95th percentile) in rDPS+aDPS. Why? Because if even if the damage it heals were to provide an added healer offensive uptime, consider how many Fall Malefics, for instance, it would take to generate 5.6% of Monk's damage.

Should the heal have a cost to maximum DPS if given for "free" (no Chakra cost, etc., for use)? Of course. But that cost to maximum on-paper striking dummy damage should be in keeping with the extra damage that can be provided to the raid through that heal.

And since there is not a single mechanic that requires Reply of Earth to survive, on average that's simply --at best-- another healer filler attack GCD. Here, the 5.6% damage increase more than arguably keeps the party far safer than the heal does during prog, and then is hugely preferable thereafter.

BLM/VPR/SAM is the only true DPS jobs in this game

You realize the only "support" utility DRG, NIN, etc., provide... is damage, right?

we are not asking for something isn't logical here weather you remove utility or make it some person job to do it.

I don't know what this is meant to mean.