Dark Knight is not fun to play

[tank2fish]

There are already several constructive threads with active conversations, so instead of throwing this where it may be lost in a day, I want to start a new thread that is generally not constructive, but that I don't see echoed clearly for the devs to see at a glance.

Dark Knight feels bad to play.

It feels bad to play in comparison to the other tanks. I'm an omni-tank and I try to invest time in all classes so I understand how they feel/work. That said, Dark Knight in Dawntrail feels like it was designed by developers who have never played the class in a serious capacity, and have not played it long enough to really understand how to play the class beyond hitting a stationary training dummy. Many changes from Endwalker into Dawntrail are not intuitive, don't feel good to play/do, and do not inspire trust in the devs that they know what they're doing when it comes to Dark Knight, specifically. The choices that were made have not been intuitive at best, and outright puzzling and bizarre at worst.

Delirium only giving 3 stacks instead of 5, and yet somehow the devs did not seem to realize that this was a nerf to damage as well as MP regen is one of the examples that point to this. Another example: TBN continues to be overly punishing when other tanks in Dawntrail comparatively have just as good if not better skills to throw on others. Another: From Endwalker, the change to Abyssal Drain to have it share a cooldown with Carve and Spit is a change that does not make sense, and does not feel good if you actually play the class in real content.

Another: Enhanced Unmend. Anyone who plays DRK for any length of time in the actual game would understand that this is a waste of a trait and does not legitimately benefit the play and feel of the class in any significant way. Yet the devs don't seem to agree, which is yet another disconnect and does not inspire trust.

I apologize if I'm coming across overly harsh. This has been an issue for several years now, without any direct acknowledgment or recognition from the devs. It has gotten worse over time, and now there are rumors that the next expansion may have a new tank class.

Respectfully, we should not have any new tank classes introduced if you do not know what to do with Dark Knight and don't know how to fix it.

If anything, it would be nice if the devs could at least acknowledge that there are issues with DRK, so that we know that they're at least aware there's a problem. I would take that much, at this point. It's been very frustrating to see and experience, especially because I used to be a DRK main and it used to be my favorite class. It is a lie to say all tank classes receive equal amounts of attention and resources. DRK remains an afterthought, which is perplexing given that many argue it has the best story. The only reason to play it now would be the story, and to not continue beyond that.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Valence]

As a non tank main I find that the irony is while DRK definitely suffers from all the things you mention, it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

[revan08566]

I'm in the camp that the other tanks have too much self healing/sustain and should be more reliant on the healers - differing opinions, I know. But since they've taken things this direction already, might as well add better self sustain to DRK.
It would be nice if TBN break gave an option between a free AD, CS, and edge/flood of shadow. I like the way TBN works, which I know is a contentious topic, but it needs a little extra for it to be balanced.

But AD is useless as is and has been for a long time. If it was even half as effective as blood whetting I'd be happy. Just reading through the bloodwhetting description blows my mind - a barrier, a ridiculous heal, and a damage mit. HOC for GNB is similar with a 900 potency cure! AD has a single 200 potency ever 60 seconds .. .. .. .. It's bad

A regen when standing in salted earth is a good one Xeno called out in his video from another comment. <-- That is an absolute no brainer imo.

Someone mention a spread shield to pair with dark missionary, similar to sch adlo + deployment tactics, which sounds really nice.

but ya.. some acknowledgement from SE would be nice. No matter what they do, lots of people will hate it. I'd understand it if it had the best damage with the worst sustain, but they gave that to GNB and it still has amazing MITS. Astro needs an apology if this was intentional - I hear it was amazing before my time.

[Zofian]

I'm now of the belief that anything good with the game in earlier years was just an accident and never understood internally to actually be good things, given the game's ongoing descent into a mess.

Obviously Plunge should never have been taken away and must be restored. The linking of Carve and Spit with Abyssal Drain is always a thorn in the side of the job, but as we've seen since Endwalker, skills can (and are more likely now) to be made worse for any job.

I do like DRK's 'glass cannon' style identity (at least that's how I see it), low sustain but lots of AoEs that you can use and weave a bit, or use the single target attacks in same fashion. But another sustain/mitigation couldn't hurt. I don't pay much attention to overall damage output/dps comparisons but if it needs an upping of that too, then fine.

I do like the change to Living Shadow, keep it's function like this. I hope to see the ability to glamour the shadow to be a simulacra of our own character+outfit and not Fray though.

[tank2fish]

As a non tank main I find that the irony is while DRK definitely suffers from all the things you mention, it still remains the only tank that's remotely fun and rewarding to play defensively, notably in dungeons as it still favors skill expression there.

I mean, you're right: playing defensively and that particular niche of skill expression as DRK can feel really satisfying, sometimes. YMMV since it's a subjective thing, but in my experience landing a well-timed TBN to save a healer and preventing a wipe does feel fun and rewarding. Tossing TBN and both Oblations to reduce the damage does feel rewarding.

However, when in comparison to other tanks, it feels less rewarding the more you're comfortable and experienced with playing the other tanks. Especially when it comes to Paladin, and Warrior. Again, this is subjective, but IMO/IME Paladin's skill ceiling is higher when it comes to defensive skill expression.

Paladin's Intervention, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, and Passage of Arms, allows a player to do all of that, but save more people. Clemency can do what TBN does, but better and has more universal applications when things are going downhill. Cover guarantees the person will survive, whereas TBN is only a maybe. Passage significantly reduces the damage taken across the board for everyone standing in it. Intervention does the same as Oblation, but can be buffed and the recast timer is faster, and gives a regen. Divine Veil does the same mit as Oblation, but for the entire party, provides a regen, and gives a shield. Recast timer is only 30s longer than Oblation.

Warrior's defensive skill expression is often undermined bc the community treats it as mindless, but that's often not the case. Generally, a fully buffed Shake-it-Off can save more people and put about equal shielding comparatively as a single TBN. Cooldown is only 30s longer than Oblation, and provides healing as well as regen. Nascent Flash's cooldown is only 10s longer than TBN, does the exact same amount of mitigation as Oblation, and also comes with a regen based on WAR's damage.

If anything, the only class DRK has beat is Gunbreaker. GNB's Heart of Corundum is a shorter cooldown than Oblation and naturally does more mit on its own, w/o being buffed by the rotation. Aurora's regen can assist in getting people's health up but overall GNB doesn't particularly feel great when it comes to saving or keeping people alive.

All that said, if the devs wanted to lean harder into DRK being a more defensive shielding class for the party, that would be an interesting niche that they could potentially explore. If anything, DRK skill expression when it comes to playing defensively is largely under utilized... and I would argue is not a design philosophy for the class, but was something accidentally implemented. And... comparatively, once again does not feel as good as it could and should be. Obviously we might disagree, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with that.

[RinaB]

I mained DRK since SB and quit in the Tower of Babil. I was getting my teeth smashed in even though I all my gear was 530. Back then my healers were fine and I realized my abilities just weren't able to keep up with the incoming damage and how awful oblation is. I switched over to my GNB in exactly the same gear and had no issues. I agree with the points already mentioned but my biggest complaint about DRK has always been their MIT. Why can't oblation just operate like HOC and why can't dark mind be more useful. Their filler combo is boring as hell and I got so tired of it by the tike I hit 85 I never looked back. Unfortunately it sounds like it's even worse now.

[ConantSivrha]

For me, how a job "feels" to play is a separate thing from how powerful the job is compared to others in its role. A lot of your stated issues with DRK seem to be some variant of "this is bad because it isn't as strong/effective as what other tanks have", which isn't something that I necessarily disagree with, but I also think DRK is fun to play even if it is "weak". I dropped Paladin in favor of Dark Knight because I found Dark Knight's gameplay more fun, and while I play Gunbreaker and Warrior on alts, I find them significantly less enjoyable than Dark Knight. DRK's gameplay just appeals to a different type of player than the other tanks, and I'd say this is a good thing.

Delirium only giving 3 stacks instead of 5, and yet somehow the devs did not seem to realize that this was a nerf to damage as well as MP regen is one of the examples that point to this. Another example: TBN continues to be overly punishing when other tanks in Dawntrail comparatively have just as good if not better skills to throw on others. Another: From Endwalker, the change to Abyssal Drain to have it share a cooldown with Carve and Spit is a change that does not make sense, and does not feel good if you actually play the class in real content.

Another: Enhanced Unmend. Anyone who plays DRK for any length of time in the actual game would understand that this is a waste of a trait and does not legitimately benefit the play and feel of the class in any significant way.

I agree with what you said here about Enhanced Unmend, Delirium, and Abyssal Drain/Carve and Spit. Though, I'm actually glad that TBN is "punishing"; using it at the right time feels good because there's a cost and a wrong time to use it. Without this, it would become just another button that you press because it's there.

As long as DRK doesn't lose the interesting features it has now---such as MP use/management, it's tendency towards OGCDs over GCDs, and TBN---I'm not completely against changes to the job, especially if those changes reinforce a unique identity for DRK instead of making its gameplay more like that of other tanks. It would be nice to see some older concepts (and animations) return, too.

All that said, if the devs wanted to lean harder into DRK being a more defensive shielding class for the party, that would be an interesting niche that they could potentially explore.

Being able to shield party members with TBN is one of my favorite things about the job currently, so I would support this.

[Valence]

I mean, you're right: playing defensively and that particular niche of skill expression as DRK can feel really satisfying, sometimes. YMMV since it's a subjective thing, but in my experience landing a well-timed TBN to save a healer and preventing a wipe does feel fun and rewarding. Tossing TBN and both Oblations to reduce the damage does feel rewarding.

However, when in comparison to other tanks, it feels less rewarding the more you're comfortable and experienced with playing the other tanks. Especially when it comes to Paladin, and Warrior. Again, this is subjective, but IMO/IME Paladin's skill ceiling is higher when it comes to defensive skill expression.

Paladin's Intervention, Cover, Divine Veil, Clemency, and Passage of Arms, allows a player to do all of that, but save more people. Clemency can do what TBN does, but better and has more universal applications when things are going downhill. Cover guarantees the person will survive, whereas TBN is only a maybe. Passage significantly reduces the damage taken across the board for everyone standing in it. Intervention does the same as Oblation, but can be buffed and the recast timer is faster, and gives a regen. Divine Veil does the same mit as Oblation, but for the entire party, provides a regen, and gives a shield. Recast timer is only 30s longer than Oblation.

Warrior's defensive skill expression is often undermined bc the community treats it as mindless, but that's often not the case. Generally, a fully buffed Shake-it-Off can save more people and put about equal shielding comparatively as a single TBN. Cooldown is only 30s longer than Oblation, and provides healing as well as regen. Nascent Flash's cooldown is only 10s longer than TBN, does the exact same amount of mitigation as Oblation, and also comes with a regen based on WAR's damage.

If anything, the only class DRK has beat is Gunbreaker. GNB's Heart of Corundum is a shorter cooldown than Oblation and naturally does more mit on its own, w/o being buffed by the rotation. Aurora's regen can assist in getting people's health up but overall GNB doesn't particularly feel great when it comes to saving or keeping people alive.

All that said, if the devs wanted to lean harder into DRK being a more defensive shielding class for the party, that would be an interesting niche that they could potentially explore. If anything, DRK skill expression when it comes to playing defensively is largely under utilized... and I would argue is not a design philosophy for the class, but was something accidentally implemented. And... comparatively, once again does not feel as good as it could and should be. Obviously we might disagree, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with that.

I guess I was more talking about dungeon play than support tools for the job. Sure PLD has more interesting things to juggle with for that. But all PLD, WAR and even GNB are braindead and overpowered to play in dungeons, and that's where I have some fun with DRK. Perhaps it's sad that it's where the job feels the most unique and rewarding skill play tbh, maybe that's what I was trying to say.

[Derio]

I like to play DRK in raids and in raids only. Everything outside of that is bad. Dungeons are really bad and you are better off playing another tank for dungeons. Casual content in group play where limited healing is available, bad to play.

Im looking for big rework in 8.0

[Rithy255]

I like to play DRK in raids and in raids only. Everything outside of that is bad. Dungeons are really bad and you are better off playing another tank for dungeons. Casual content in group play where limited healing is available, bad to play.

Im looking for big rework in 8.0

People in 5.0 were looking foward to a big rework in 6.0, people in 6.0 were looking foward to a big rework in 7.0.
I mean they could rework it for 8.0 and I hope so but it's most likely gonna be a astro rework and a monk rework, going off by ever expansion them getting one lol.

Personally i hope they rework all tanks and healers in 8.0, the current fomular and gameplay for both is outdated.