Rphys: why slow walk casts (ala pvp) aren't a solution

[Ramiee]

I am sorry but you literally started all of this by saying and I quote that I don't care about other's opinions, only mine. And now you're backpedaling and accusing me of being dismissive

I'll assume from now on that you weren't trying to disregard other peoples opinions but the comment especially about calling people caster mains made it seem like you really didn't want to engage with other opinions which could of just been a poor choice of words.

I'm happy for you if you're able to move on. It's not my case. If what you're insinuating is that it makes my opinion less worth of considering, or elitist, or whatever, then I'm sorry to hear that. I've seen a lot of people that love changing and playing all kinds of jobs and even roles all the times. I've also seen a lot of players like me that stick to their guns and do not want to change, and not in spite of trying either.

Thats fine I can understand why you prefer the identity of no cast times on Phys Range and there are a lot of people who ask for changes that fit personal tastes instead of whats good for the job. What I was talking about was more related to giving you my viewpoint and background to let you know im viewing this from the pov of an ex-bard main who doesn't like how range phys currently is and that being the reason I don't care about cast times.

I am absolutely open to any opinion from anybody. I am less happy when people start hammering something about I'm wrong to dislike their idea-- That's how it felt that at some point I eventually had to ask, and if that wasn't the intent, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. But I still rest my case on this specific debate and will keep pushing back against this walked casts idea

Personally, i'll always base myself on what the game has been and its history over whatever description a website can have. Obviously, it doesn't mean that I should disregard it completely though.

I think it purely came from a previous sentence that looked like you were disregarding opinions instead of having a discussion so it was probably just text not conveying your attitude properly, So yeah its fine.
I don't think its elitism nor gatekeeping to prefer a style of gameplay over another style otherwise its fine if you prefer instant cast attacks, me personally would not mind walking casts on a Bard song and maybe one on DNC in the form of that spinning move. Though my issues with bard are far more than that, I think walking casts could be interesting but I agree that they aren't really the answer to fixing phys range.

I use the website as a official manifesto behind each role for CBU3 as their statements of what they consider role identities to be, which is why I often criticise magical dps because it bluntly states that they are restricted by casting times which is not true or SMN and most of RDM.

[Connor]

However I would like to ask a question because I still don't seem to understand properly: What is the difference between the PvP walking casts and the mDPS casts? From a purely design standpoint, they are far too similar and can easily be grouped up under the "Casting" umbrella. In a PvE environment, as players seem to wish to bring those to, they would functionnally work the same way as well because the rDPS role would be rendered static (though not in the same degree as the actual mages) unlike its current "run-while-shooting-and-dodging" gameplay.

As I understand it I think the general idea is both: that it gives what’s currently fairly lacklustre gameplay a bit more depth, albeit not much; and that it would justify giving rDPS more competitive dps than we have currently.

I think the main differentiation between the two forms of ‘casting’ is that while mages are generally both stationary and each have their own unique casting animation etc. PvP rDPS are both mobile and have a shared animation, which I think feeds into the whole ‘charging not casting’ thing where people don’t really see it as being the same, despite it being essentially the same functionally / in practice. And I mean, with slidecasting being a thing isn’t every cast a ‘walking cast’ lol? Sliding cast?

Personally I think for Bard at least casting definitely has a place for songs. For Machinist and Dancer, much less so. The only weapon skills I’d personally accept cast times on are Iron Jaws and Radiant Finale. Mostly because, there’s no bloody way those are weaponskills that deal physical damage (“Ouch! You smacked me with a ball of aetherial poison! I’ll be bruised for days!”) lol. But they could also justify the cast times by having Iron Jaws also spread Windbite/Venomous Bite, and for Finale a cast time could balance out having it useable more often. I think lol

[Lyth]

It's interesting seeing how these subdivisions developed. The first mention of Physical Ranged comes up in the 3.0 patch notes in the context of the revision to the Limit Break animations, giving Bard and Machinist a line AoE. But the jobs were described as 'Casters' in the notes. Patch 3.1 describes a singular 'Ranged' role in which Bard, Machinist, Summoner, and Black Mage all existed. Bringing more than three jobs in a 'role' at the time incurred a limit break penalty. I think it's really 4.x onwards which moved towards this concept of Physical Ranged being a highly mobile 'support' ranged category and Magical Ranged being a stationary 'damage' range category emerged. The problem is that this has over time become code for an 'upper' and 'lower' tier of ranged DPS.

That distinction is unnecessary now, since most Casters now have either similar or better utility while having plenty of burst mobility and instant casts. I think the discussion around moving casts is really just about proving equivalence. I don't think you necessarily need a 'role mechanic', and it's certainly difficult to impose a new one on a role after ten years. But as a thought experiment, if MCH had a couple of moments when it needed to be stationary, balanced out by a 20 second recast jetpack that propelled you forward and gave you five seconds of sprint, could you really justify the job doing less damage than PCT, which is essentially SMN Mk.2?

[Valence]

I think the problem is that rphys doesn't exactly shine by additional difficulty elsewhere comparatively to melee DPS and caster DPS. MCH has APM and BRD/DNC have rng triage in their burst, but that's about it. Their rotations have ceased to be demanding when ShB murdered the role.

Remember that MCH was considered to be the galaxybrain job back in HW, not BLM. It was a frantic mess to play, and even without the cast times the rotation could be intimidating. Even in SB where it got more streamlined, and without bringing the obvious jank of ping that's been plaguing it until half EW anyway, it was the most disgustingly punishing job to make a mistake with as it worked like a delicate clockwork. The rng and ammo system was miles above anything that current proc jobs have in terms of caretaking and decision making. The pet was not a hard thing to manage but it was still a pet with HP that could die (and it was optimal to blow it up in burst/buffs), which was way more interaction (especially with HW turrets) than what queen currently offers even though its battery plans have become a little obnoxious in DT.

BRD in SB was the first iteration of the current platform we have, but remember that the songs were 30s long and not 45 and the dots were also shorter. Remember that every proc was based on dot crits and it was nowhere close the steady, predictable dot ticks we have right now (procs were popping everywhere all the time), bloodletter had no charges and was proccing like crazy, overcapping was sky high. The pace and APM of the job was wild comparatively to what we have, and the burst was harder to manage (no guaranteed refulgent on barrage, etc). And then you also had to manage Foe Requiem application in relation to MP and not a fire and forget button you pressed on cd every 2min.

Even DNC that came after the paradigm shift was harder in SHB than it's been since EW. Flourish procs required not to be overwritten which demanded to enter flourish windows proc neutral. Every AoE proc move was part of the burst as well and required melee uptime. It was still a relatively resident sleepers job as well (considered the easiest of the shb expansion back then), but it demanded more than what it does currently.

[Valence]

I've been mulling over positioning actually. We know that uptime and positioning is a big part of melee DPS and caster DPS, the former because they have a limited range and some positionals, and the latter because they have cast times. All of this informs where the player should stand, and essentially feeds into positioning gameplay (combined with what tools you use at the moment, whether they're instant or not, or positionals or not for example). One of the things people have been considering instinctively to bring the role on par with the others is naturally tied to positioning, and I've seen cast times mentioned but also sometimes even ranged positionals, which are both borrowed from melees and casters.

But what if rphys had things based on tools like repelling shot? Possibly a hot take, but Resonant could have been put behind Repelling instead of Barrage? What if the "thing" of rphys requires sometimes to go melee (like old DNC did), sometimes to backflip before charging an attack? That kind of things? That's how DRG works in pvp for instance with Elusive into Wyrmwind. Potency based on range like pvp BRD I'm less of a fan though unless the skill is super flexible in when to use it.

Just me musing either way I guess.

[Ramiee]

Whatever changes they make I just want them to now give us their clear direction of what the Phys range role is.
If it is a support role and they want it to remain support with low damage then machinist needs to have more support or if they want to make it Phys range is support but machinist is a damage dealer they need to make machinist do more damage and have it's aoe fixed. Before anything CBU3 needs to tell us what their goal is with this role, because like magical ranged SMN there's a job that's against the identity of the role they put forward. They need to make it clear if it's an exception or not.

[Connor]

Whatever changes they make I just want them to now give us their clear direction of what the Phys range role is.
If it is a support role and they want it to remain support with low damage then machinist needs to have more support or if they want to make it Phys range is support but machinist is a damage dealer they need to make machinist do more damage and have it's aoe fixed. Before anything CBU3 needs to tell us what their goal is with this role, because like magical ranged SMN there's a job that's against the identity of the role they put forward. They need to make it clear if it's an exception or not.

Devs: “Yes we hear you loud and clear”
*buffs Pictomancer potencies*

Genuinely wouldn’t surprise me lol. But agreed, they need to pick a lane for the role and actually stick with it. Honestly I think that goes for healers too. Is it a support oriented role with minimal dps or is it a dps oriented role with minimal support oGCDs. Because trying to have it both ways just end up stretching the role so thin it’s torn apart