Is it time for enrage timers in normal content?

[Aravell]

I feel like tanks are so quick to claim their party is incompetent when the tank is also showing incompetence by letting the party die instead of using their multitude of tools to keep those who are alive standing for longer, WAR has a very easy time with this but I rarely see ones that use Nascent Flash to preserve someone.

That said, we know that the game can detect what role someone is, as evidenced by mechanics that only target tanks or only healers or only DPS.

So my proposal is a compromise, if the game detects only tanks left alive, it starts a hard enrage countdown of 3 minutes. A tank that wants to finish off a near-dead boss is given the time to do so, but 3 minutes is also not enough to kill from a high percentage and waste everyone's time.

[Laerune]

I feel like tanks are so quick to claim their party is incompetent when the tank is also showing incompetence by letting the party die instead of using their multitude of tools to keep those who are alive standing for longer, WAR has a very easy time with this but I rarely see ones that use Nascent Flash to preserve someone.

That said, we know that the game can detect what role someone is, as evidenced by mechanics that only target tanks or only healers or only DPS.

So my proposal is a compromise, if the game detects only tanks left alive, it starts a hard enrage countdown of 3 minutes. A tank that wants to finish off a near-dead boss is given the time to do so, but 3 minutes is also not enough to kill from a high percentage and waste everyone's time.

This, I want this.

[Jokerz_93]

TLR
Playing tanks is the same as playing a DPSs with a much easier rotation and more privileges.
You are not soloing the boss to prove you can avoid mechanics; you are doing it for your ego.

Tora, omni tank, main DRK.
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Honestly, as a tank, if I see both healers down and no ressing dps I just go for the reset if boss hps percentage is above the 10/15% and even it’s below this threshold I keep an eye on how fast its hps drops.

There’s little “skill” in playing XIV and I don’t see how useful it could be pressing the same buttons for 20+ minutes more than the usual.

Besides it’s not just tanks that are “flawless”.
Dps too can make no mistakes but dying bc of unavoidable damage if there are no healers left or no heals are coming.
And healers too can die bc someone else mistakes. (Stacking spread markers, not soaking towers, focusing on healing dps/tanks e.g.).

If it’s true someone is not forced to reset if they have not made mistakes, does this means that they are allowed to take other people by hostages? Where it can may be someone who died bc something they could not stop?
And if yes, for what?
What do you accomplish?

I honestly did it once on the first boss of Alexandria just too see if DRK was in fact unable to stay alive alone, from 80 to 30 before having my answer. (For the curious, it’s not true. DRK have the bare minimum necessary to solo a boss, from level 92+).

Maybe someone is forgetting that this is an MMO and their primary concern should be to not disrupt theirs and others gameplay.

And lastly, tbh for those solo tanks: to satisfy better your ego and to prove to the world you are a “better” player, queu as dps and if happens try to solo a normal boss.
I garantee it’s more funny.

[kaynide]

This comes ups enough for me to have a canned response to it.. so just imo:

Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

It’s not a player’s fault the game is badly designed in this way. Also, nothing stopping you (any “you”, not anyone specific) from asking to reset.

1) ToS: It's not against policy to solo the fight

It is not against the ToS to solo a fight once the party wipes.

People can disagree on how to play, and can/should discuss it in a civil manner. Do note that specifically telling a player, including a tank, that they’re not allowed to play their job as it is designed IS against ToS. Asking and discussing is encouraged, forcing others to play how you want to play is not.

And before you say “but the tank is forcing you to sit and watch!”, they are not. It is not their job to keep you alive. And it is certainly not their fault that you died.

If a healer refuses to raise you, then sure, you might have a case.

Now if you wanna talk about what’s polite, then sure, the tank probably SHOULD kill themselves and rest the fight, but it is important to distinguish between set rules and polite manners.

2) My solution: Give Tanks Raise

Hear me out:

The problem (including #healerstrike) is that the healer role is just not that fun or challenging, and generally unneeded for a LOT of content.

Imho, it is because the devs painted themselves into a corner:
1) If you make it so healers are crucial, then there's too much pressure on when/if they die, which..
2) Makes people not want to play healer so...
3) You make the tank able to survive without a healer, even though it takes forever.

This is easily alleviated by giving raise to more jobs so that the healer can die without much penalty, as long as someone else can "save the day" by raising the healer.

This would allow enemies to hit harder and allow healers to die if they screw up, but not cause a single healer death to sour the duty for everyone (aka healer dies and we all die...or we all just sit here for 10 minutes waiting for the tank to solo)

3) Tl;DR:

1) Make Mobs hit a LOT harder. Like the vuln debuff you get for not avoiding a boss attack? Straight up 25% damage per stack (4th time no dodge? you 100% dead!)
2) Give tanks raise
3) Allow healers to die, and be raised mid boss.

This makes healers:
A) need to focus on healing over DPS, even in trash packs
B) makes the tank survive at best 20% of a boss’s hp bar. They would NEED to focus on raising their healer.

[Amarande]

That being said, and it might be because of the strike, but I have seen Healer quality plummet recently. Genuinely the worst I've seen, I've genuinely had to use bloodbath and second wind to keep myself alive multiple times despite doing mechanics correcctly.

Veteran healers getting bored/burned out and being replaced with greener ones may well be a factor, but I also expect that it's partly on SE here.

I just did the 97 dungeon through the 99 trial yesterday on my MSQ journey and if there's one thing I've been almost continually noting in Dawntrail, it's the OVERALL horribly anti-caster nature of the boss fights in dungeons (Solo duties actually seem to be a lot more chill this time around). And seeing what every healer is ...

We're talking SE decided to add "difficulty" all too often in the form of mass AoE spam phases that feel like something out of Touhou or 80s arcades/NES stuff. On some bosses (hi, 97 boss 2, 99 boss 1) it's tense enough even on Dancer, I don't even know how anyone with cast bars stays sane - if they continue this trend, I don't even see how casters stay viable at all (maybe have to redo them to be like Korean MMO magic classes that have few actual casts and mostly just sling fire around as instantly as the physical fighters?).

If every avoidable hit in the game gave twice come ruin we’d see how “talented” tanks are over the other roles

I'd agree if we had the old mechanics pacing, but with these 20 AoEs in 20 seconds things (and with XIV's snapshotting rules)? I'd like to actually finish a dungeon sometime this century. The occasional wipe sure, maybe even a few wipes (I still remember the olden days of Brayflox sometimes taking over an hour lol), but ... that might be a bit much.

3) Allow healers to die, and be raised mid boss.

I have oft felt this is a big part of the problem that goes largely unmentioned: on top of the increasingly spammy AoEs, we've had four non-raise DPS over the last three expansions - with the result that the comfortable insurance that came from commonly having a RDM or SMN in the party has gone completely out the window.

It's all on the healer's shoulders now and they have no backup, so this situation is getting increasingly common.

Personally I've rolled eyes at the whole healer strike thing, but I also haven't been very comfortable with the idea of queuing as healer lately because it's gone to being such a high stress role (I toughed it out through 6.0 but my experience of DT dungeons - which I've been doing as Dancer - has validated that trying to first time that stuff as healer is getting to be a bit much now).

[Reimmi]

I get wanting to prevent some tanks from holding the rest of the party hostage because they're selfish jerks, so a system that clocks them out whether they like it or not to remind them it's a team fight sounds nice.

But... this is kinda running counter to that whole "we're not asking to make game harder to push out casuals" argument we were having a few days ago by trying to turn normal content into "hardcore lite" by implementing mechanics from Extreme/Savage/Ultimate/etc.

I don't think its unreasonable to have a enrage after like 12 minutes of a fight. I think players should learn to play the game personally, it's a bit insulting to the intelligence of players if they can be ressed 50 times in a fight and drug along the finish line

[AmorfaVex]

Tanks are OP - True

Tanks should be more considerate of their fellow party members - Also True

But wow, the irony in this thread is amazing. The ONLY way this happens is when the healer dies.

I'm not saying a healer's job is easy when you have stupid DPS, but how can people complain about healer complexity out of one side of their mouth but fail to keep their party alive long enough to avoid this scenario?

No. We dont need enrage timers. We need better players AND more considerate players.