Frontlines: Leechers and Feeders

[MisterNublet]

I can see where you think it's about gear, and that's on me for not wording it in a better manner. Artifact gear is level 99. You can get better gear from the 100 dungeons, tome gear, etc. Even if you went with artifact gear, there is no materia. So what I was trying to say, and put that in my last response, was about the effort.

You're still correlating gearing up with effort and participation in a duty. Even if a player is too lazy to upgrade their artifact gear with dungeon/tome gear, if they are still doing their dps rotation and making an attempt to respect the mechanics in a fight, then they are doing their job and it doesn't matter if its artifact gear because they are still making an honest effort to participate inside the duty. Not to mention the fights were designed by SE to be cleared with said item level which the artifact gear has +5 item levels on.

Also, someone with upgraded/tome gear can do jack all in a fight, so all that "effort" they put into gearing up means literally squat if they make zero effort in the duty.

You want people to put effort into PvP and hold them to your standards and not let them get rewarded, then you can't in turn be upset if someone in PvE wanted to withhold rewards from you from not meeting their subjective standards.

If you want to argue about afking, I'm 100% with you. But unless it's 100% objective, there is not going to be any way to determine who should and shouldn't get rewards.

Weird thing about PvE content, if I chose barely participate by only pressing a single dps skill on my keyboard, decide not to heal the tank, not use my mitigations as a tank, or repeatedly die to the same avoidable mechanics. High chance I'm not clearing the content and won't receive any rewards because I refused to participate and a hindrance to my party.

Only reason its a high chance and not a 100% chance because too many people keep making excuses and refuse to hold anyone accountable for when players are purposely making no effort and are griefing the party.

[Menriq]

You're still correlating gearing up with effort and participation in a duty. Even if a player is too lazy to upgrade their artifact gear with dungeon/tome gear, if they are still doing their dps rotation and making an attempt to respect the mechanics in a fight, then they are doing their job and it doesn't matter if its artifact gear because they are still making an honest effort to participate inside the duty. Not to mention the fights were designed by SE to be cleared with said item level which the artifact gear has +5 item levels on.

Also, someone with upgraded/tome gear can do jack all in a fight, so all that "effort" they put into gearing up means literally squat if they make zero effort in the duty.

So again, it boils down to subjectivity. This is the crux of the issue. You feel they are not putting effort in and should not be rewarded. Someone might think you coming in with improper gear is not putting effort in. In both cases, there are no objective thresholds that determine a standard.

Now, if this were ranked CC, or if they ever implemented ranked FL, then I would absolutely agree with you that the performance is extremely poor and they should stick to casual mode until they get better experienced. However, since this is FL, there is nothing you can really do about it. I would be all for what has been mentioned before about having MMR that would pit people of equal skill together, but just like a duty in PvE, you get what you get in a queued environment.

Weird thing about PvE content, if I chose barely participate by only pressing a single dps skill on my keyboard, decide not to heal the tank, not use my mitigations as a tank, or repeatedly die to the same avoidable mechanics. High chance I'm not clearing the content and won't receive any rewards because I refused to participate and a hindrance to my party.

Only reason its a high chance and not a 100% chance because too many people keep making excuses and refuse to hold anyone accountable for when players are purposely making no effort and are griefing the party.

This is the thing. People are carried in PvE casual content all the time doing exactly what you said. You have DPS not doing AoE on trash packs, healers either spamming cure 1 or doing no damage, and tanks not doing mitigation all the time. The content is still cleared.

I highlighted the bold part because this is 100% on SE. They have made so many people afraid to say anything with their ToS, and you can be reported for the smallest slight, so people just don't say anything. There have been many examples of people trying to hold others accountable and getting account actions. Absent of that, I think you would have more people calling people out for their play, both in PvE and PvP. I can't tell you how many times in PvP you have the group focusing on the team not in 1st and just want to call people out, but can't.

[MisterNublet]

So again, it boils down to subjectivity. This is the crux of the issue. You feel they are not putting effort in and should not be rewarded. Someone might think you coming in with improper gear is not putting effort in. In both cases, there are no objective thresholds that determine a standard.

Good lord. The avg item level requirement of 685 is literally the objective threshold, the minimum standard set by Square Enix themselves for players to met to be able to use the duty finder to queue into Arcadia. Party finder is for players who want a higher item level above (or below) what Square Enix themselves have set.

Again, the gear itself does not correlate with player performance inside of a duty. It's a bad argument.

Now, if this were ranked CC, or if they ever implemented ranked FL, then I would absolutely agree with you that the performance is extremely poor and they should stick to casual mode until they get better experienced. However, since this is FL, there is nothing you can really do about it. I would be all for what has been mentioned before about having MMR that would pit people of equal skill together, but just like a duty in PvE, you get what you get in a queued environment.

I disagree. Doesn't matter if its ranked or not. If I see someone dying repeatedly because they run solo into a group of enemy players repeatedly over and over again, I'm going to report them. Being bad is no longer an excuse at that point when you go 0-10. The GMs can review the report and decide from there.

This is the thing. People are carried in PvE casual content all the time doing exactly what you said. You have DPS not doing AoE on trash packs, healers either spamming cure 1 or doing no damage, and tanks not doing mitigation all the time. The content is still cleared.

Guess you don't follow TalesfromDF, but a lot of those you pull-you tank players, cure 1 spammers, and zero damage dps players are getting votekicked more and more lately. I've also kicked players from dungeons when they think they're going to get a free ride. It is on you then if you're allowing such players to leech off you.

I highlighted the bold part because this is 100% on SE. They have made so many people afraid to say anything with their ToS, and you can be reported for the smallest slight, so people just don't say anything. There have been many examples of people trying to hold others accountable and getting account actions. Absent of that, I think you would have more people calling people out for their play, both in PvE and PvP. I can't tell you how many times in PvP you have the group focusing on the team not in 1st and just want to call people out, but can't.

I've called dozens of players out in PvP and PvE for being leeches and never once have been contacted by a GM for it. I've called out multiple teams over their terrible decision to fight the 2nd/3rd place instead of pushing back against the 1st place team and haven't heard a peep.

The whole "gm will get ya" for calling someone out in chat is such a boogeyman story, that it feels like a rumor perpetrated by nuisance players to keep them from being called out on.

[Escalan]

I completely agree with you, and the biggest reason for that problem is the extremely bad PVP design. Most people who play the game don't like PVP and only enter frontlines just to leech xp or tomestones as you said. The main reason is that the PVP is terrible. You don't feel having any impact because it's pure RNG and everything depends on your placement on the map (Seal Rock) and your team, hence when people realize that that they stop caring, and they enter frontlines just to do nothing and get their rewards. Devs and players both contribute to this problem.

[IDontPetLalas]

I completely agree with you, and the biggest reason for that problem is the extremely bad PVP design. Most people who play the game don't like PVP and only enter frontlines just to leech xp or tomestones as you said. The main reason is that the PVP is terrible. You don't feel having any impact because it's pure RNG and everything depends on your placement on the map (Seal Rock) and your team, hence when people realize that that they stop caring, and they enter frontlines just to do nothing and get their rewards. Devs and players both contribute to this problem.

In some cases, it will mean an easier match, in some cases a more difficult match, however this is a very selfish way excuse to put in no effort. No one would accept that in PvE, if someone didn't like a specific dungeon, a player just sat on their virtual butt and announced "carry me, I don't like this dungeon, but I want the rewards". They'd be kicked. it's not mandatory content, if someone doesn't like it, they're expected to put in the effort.

[Mawlzy]

New Record! Just had a Seal Rock match where my team finished on 0. Nul points. And it appeared people were trying.

MMR now.

[Menriq]

New Record! Just had a Seal Rock match where my team finished on 0. Nul points. And it appeared people were trying.

MMR now.

I've had that happen a few times and it actually impresses me since this is without premades.

[Mistress_Irika]

New Record! Just had a Seal Rock match where my team finished on 0. Nul points. And it appeared people were trying.

MMR now.

That's what happens when players decide to pick on the team with the lowest score in order to secure a win. Again, a legit strategy to make sure that they aren't the ones screwed over. After all, if it isn't about farming for xp it about making sure that you don't place last. Definitely not sure that a MMR system will help in a casual mode.

[Mawlzy]

That's what happens when players decide to pick on the team with the lowest score in order to secure a win. Again, a legit strategy to make sure that they aren't the ones screwed over. After all, if it isn't about farming for xp it about making sure that you don't place last. Definitely not sure that a MMR system will help in a casual mode.

I understand by "casual" you mean non-ranked, but using the broader meaning, FL is played so casually by some they are reluctant to press their buttons, and so competitively by others that they get on voice chat and use meta stacks in light parties. In the absence of queue separation, an MMR simply puts those watching Netflix in tier 3, the sweaty tryhards in tier 1, and the bulk of serious players in tier 2.

I'm sure many of you will be familiar with the military principle of Boucles d'or which I believe can be applied to the current situation, even if you are not overfond of porridge.

[AriannaStormwake]

think i saw this in the shatter match i just left
whenever that happens best to leave wait out the debuff and try again
lowscore third is not exactly the best place to be in haha