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  1. #1
    Player
    CosmosNovaRose's Avatar
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    Oct 2022
    Location
    Ul Dah
    Posts
    8
    Character
    Kaida Hinata
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90

    In regards to G'raha Tia in Dawntrail and going forward *MSQ SPOILERS*

    I, as I am sure many other fans of this character, loved the little date in Living Memory with G'raha Tia. It was a much-needed reprieve, and the conversation he has with us on the gondola is quite possibly my favorite moment in the entirety of Dawntrail, and easily up there as one of my favorite moments in the entire game. It feels like a script Ishikawa herself may have written, as he suddenly expresses depth and acknowledges his deep-seated feelings on wanting to spend one more day with someone he lost. He doesn't say it outright, but I believe he is referring to the WoL, specifically from the doomed timeline. He also wonders what he would have done if he was presented with something like Living Memory to bring us back to life. It's, in my opinion, a fantastic exploration of his morals and his dedication to the WoL.

    Canal town was also described to be for romance and pleasure. Given the buildup to this conversation is, quite literally, finding a wedding ring for a couple reunited in death, and him being told to live life with no regrets... G'raha's word choice is rich with subtext and the romantic tones are nearly impossible to miss in the scene (if you aren't tone deaf). Many of my friends thought he was about to confess to the WoL. I am now convinced that they put him and our WoL on a boat specifically to tease at a literal ship.

    However, I also feel sympathy for players who do not care for him at all, and were likely annoyed with the section entirely on the grounds that they do not see G'raha as a romantic interest. I imagine the frustration for players who instead pair their WoL with other popular fan favorites. I understand entirely the reason why the story will never make a specific pairing canon. Deciding a single love interest will divide the fans and rocking the boat (heh) will discourage players from coming back to the story. People are already swearing off of subbing from the game because of Dawntrail not satisfying their expectations. Introducing a canon love interest would sunder the playerbase.

    However, I personally love this dynamic. I'm a big sucker for romance in media, and I'm a dirty rotten shameless WoLGraha shipper. I am happy this scene exists, though I concede that the ship teasing needs to be dialed back and out of MSQ if they wish to respect the players' interests.

    If I could suggest a potential avenue to have the best of both worlds, for the shippers and for people who do not care for romance, I would suggest Square Enix consider an optional quest series for the players who want to develop a romance with a specific NPC. Obviously certain restrictions should be in place, such as story progress, but like job quests, these can easily be added to per expansion. Not everyone's favorite would be an option, but so it goes for a game with thousands of NPCs.
    (21)

  2. #2
    Player
    CosmosNovaRose's Avatar
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    Oct 2022
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    Ul Dah
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    8
    Character
    Kaida Hinata
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    If it affects MSQ, all it should do is change maybe one or two lines of dialogue, and leave it be.

    This proposed and hypothetical quest line could explore a more romantic approach with our favorite characters, at least a date and at most establishing an official relationship. It could really delve into what makes the characters tick and how they operate in a romantic setting, and explore what they see in the WoL. G'raha enjoyers can have their taco and eat it too, and the players who don't like the tacocat can enjoy MSQ without him making romantically-charged promises to the WoL.

    Hell, Square Enix could find a new purpose for Island Sanctuary and let us invite our romantic interest of choice to the island.

    What do you guys think of the gondola scene? Did they go too far with the romantic subtext in Living Memory? Should this be addressed in the future? Do you have other ideas on how this can be addressed?
    (7)

  3. 07-07-2024 04:18 AM
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    don't be grumpy don't be grumpy

  4. #4
    Player
    SteakDriven's Avatar
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    Dec 2020
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    71
    Character
    Boone Steakdriven
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosNovaRose View Post
    If it affects MSQ, all it should do is change maybe one or two lines of dialogue, and leave it be.

    This proposed and hypothetical quest line could explore a more romantic approach with our favorite characters, at least a date and at most establishing an official relationship. It could really delve into what makes the characters tick and how they operate in a romantic setting, and explore what they see in the WoL. G'raha enjoyers can have their taco and eat it too, and the players who don't like the tacocat can enjoy MSQ without him making romantically-charged promises to the WoL.

    Hell, Square Enix could find a new purpose for Island Sanctuary and let us invite our romantic interest of choice to the island.

    What do you guys think of the gondola scene? Did they go too far with the romantic subtext in Living Memory? Should this be addressed in the future? Do you have other ideas on how this can be addressed?
    Boone was thinking "why didn't we bring Shtola" the whole time.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Dogempire's Avatar
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    Dec 2015
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    1,079
    Character
    Okami Amaterasuu
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    I'd rather they keep any "romance" involved with the WoL restricted to purely Eternal Bonding, which is something with other players, not NPCs.

    I get that you're marketing this as optional content, but they don't even have the resources to do individual job quests, so they certainly wouldn't have the resources to make romance routes for the characters.

    Not to mention there's probably a sizeable portion of the playerbase such as myself who isn't interested in anything romantic with NPCs, and out of the portion of the playerbase that is interested in a certain NPC in that way, they would only pick 1, maybe 2 NPCs and the rest would stay untouched.

    Seems wasteful to use resources to make content that appeals to a very small portion of the playerbase, has no replayability, and just frankly doesn't fit into the game.
    (22)

    Watching forum drama be like

  6. #6
    Player
    Voidmage's Avatar
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    Apr 2020
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    691
    Character
    Hen'iel Jackel
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 47
    I want them to leave romance to the headcanon of the player and not go further on it. But I would have no problem with optional stuff in that form if only to get it out of my MSQ.
    For example, I really like Kipih Jakkya but I wouldn't want her to be forced on other players in a romantic way. I agree with you in that case entirely.
    But before we do that I would like it more if they cared for the MSQ again and only go into this stuff after they found a way how to write a story again.

    That said I liked the gondola scene itself because it showed the wise side of G'raha I liked of him as the exarch. I dind't see it as romantic but as a bonding and silent time between friends.
    I also have to say as a former big G'raha Tia hater that he really got into his role starting from 6.5 onwards and mellowed down. I don't mind him anymore and given the MSQ in DT I was really happy to spent time with him if only to get Wuk away from me.
    I want to see more of this side from him and less of the fanboy he was after Shadowbringers.
    (10)

  7. #7
    Player
    CosmosNovaRose's Avatar
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    Oct 2022
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    Ul Dah
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    8
    Character
    Kaida Hinata
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidmage View Post
    I want them to leave romance to the headcanon of the player and not go further on it. But I would have no problem with optional stuff in that form if only to get it out of my MSQ.
    For example, I really like Kipih Jakkya but I wouldn't want her to be forced on other players in a romantic way. I agree with you in that case entirely.
    But before we do that I would like it more if they cared for the MSQ again and only go into this stuff after they found a way how to write a story again.

    That said I liked the gondola scene itself because it showed the wise side of G'raha I liked of him as the exarch. I dind't see it as romantic but as a bonding and silent time between friends.
    I also have to say as a former big G'raha Tia hater that he really got into his role starting from 6.5 onwards and mellowed down. I don't mind him anymore and given the MSQ in DT I was really happy to spent time with him if only to get Wuk away from me.
    I want to see more of this side from him and less of the fanboy he was after Shadowbringers.
    This is also a very valid take! I appreciate what Square Enix has done so far and leaving it up to interpretation has done wonders for the fanbase. I agree that they should continue to keep things dubious and up in the air, but what inspired me to make this thread in the first place was that the gondola ride felt intentionally fanservice-y. On its own, a boat ride together is one thing- but preceding it was searching for a wedding ring, discussing a proposal for a loved one who you were separated from in life and death, and not wanting to pass on without expressing those feelings. G'raha then laments on wishing he spent one more day with someone he lost in life- and I think it was meant to imply the WoL in the doomed timeline, so the subject matter is fitting with the aforementioned NPC couple. A gondola is also a very romantic trope- we can even ride one for the Ceremony of Eternal Bonding. The canals were in "a land of romance and pleasure".

    The framing really sold me on that this interpretation was intentional on Square's part. And I feel like, while I am enjoying the tease, it might be for the best if they tone it down for the future. If they want to keep exploring this thread with him and keep writing these sorts of interactions for him and other popular characters, I believe it should be kept out of MSQ and moved to optional content.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player
    Voidmage's Avatar
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    Apr 2020
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    691
    Character
    Hen'iel Jackel
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Blue Mage Lv 47
    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosNovaRose View Post
    The framing really sold me on that this interpretation was intentional on Square's part. And I feel like, while I am enjoying the tease, it might be for the best if they tone it down for the future. If they want to keep exploring this thread with him and keep writing these sorts of interactions for him and other popular characters, I believe it should be kept out of MSQ and moved to optional content.
    Yeah. Either make it sidequests or give all the scions a heart to heart from time to time.
    For example, I liked the heart to heart scenes in Xenoblade. They were there for all characters but optional. That would also help with giving the characters more... well character.
    (1)

  9. #9
    Player
    Gortys's Avatar
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    Oct 2020
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    147
    Character
    Zirnseng Ladaku
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 53
    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosNovaRose View Post
    On its own, a boat ride together is one thing- but preceding it was searching for a wedding ring, discussing a proposal for a loved one who you were separated from in life and death, and not wanting to pass on without expressing those feelings. G'raha then laments on wishing he spent one more day with someone he lost in life- and I think it was meant to imply the WoL in the doomed timeline, so the subject matter is fitting with the aforementioned NPC couple. A gondola is also a very romantic trope- we can even ride one for the Ceremony of Eternal Bonding. The canals were in "a land of romance and pleasure".

    The framing really sold me on that this interpretation was intentional on Square's part. And I feel like, while I am enjoying the tease, it might be for the best if they tone it down for the future. If they want to keep exploring this thread with him and keep writing these sorts of interactions for him and other popular characters, I believe it should be kept out of MSQ and moved to optional content.
    If they put it in any content, even optional, it would become more than headcanon. There are people in my life I have loved and wish I could spend one more day with - like my grandmother. I don't wish I'd have married my grandmother. It's entirely possible that places like described here can make different people think of others outside of those they want a romantic relationship with.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player
    arstoka's Avatar
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    Jun 2024
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    106
    Character
    Hisato Yoshida
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    Exploration of character relationships in an MMO should be left to the imagination of the player through whatever expression they so choose, not within the actual game itself.

    There are a couple of reasons why I believe we shouldn't have any overt romantic aspects between the player character and important NPCs.

    1: your personal experience is not universal. People will like, dislike and feel neutral towards any given character. Part of romance is the characterization of the two individuals and how they work in a relationship. They're flaws and all. You cannot account for the complexity and depth of relationship with so many factors at hand. What you'll end up with is very surface level and will please no one because it will come off as shallow and 'honeymoon cartoon-esque'. This also has the possibility to break immersion for a lot of people and denies character growth. If you're expected to 'have' a relationship with the person then how are you going to respond when they make bad decisions?

    2: it's not a good use of resources. As already stated, there are people who just don't want to or aren't interested in engaging in stories revolving around romances with NPCs. The side quests proposed would add very little to the story or flesh out the world and if they did, they would be gatekeeping people who aren't comfortable with that sort of content.

    3: it's fine to have heart-to-heart moments between characters and players but it can only ever truly be on the NPC's side as it is the only side the writers have a voice to express THEIR character's desires, dreams, aspirations, fears, etc. You're free to interpret the interactions however you please but, as far as narrative goes, in order to appeal to the majority of players, the writers have to keep it open and as neutral as possible. You are not expected to, but encouraged to fill in responses to characters with your own imagination but, at the end of the day, the WOL is a blank slate and they, by default, cannot truly have interpersonal relationships with characters without impacting the narrative and all player's immersion. The inclusion of any optional character relationships negates the player's (already) limited agency.

    4: Square Enix will never be able to, meaningfully, kill off a character again. This has already been proven with the team is already too afraid to kill off characters post Heavensward to shake things up (not that I believe they will ever do so again regardless). It forces the character to be present in the narrative to some capacity and would, inevitably, take away from the narrative that they want to tell. In other words, they're here to stay to the possible detriment of the base game's story.
    (5)

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