Thread: Viper changes prove 8.0 will not add job complexity

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

High end content has expectation of competence, you simply cannot remove friction in high end content, it just doesn’t work. In casual content it doesn’t even matter anyway if you dropped noxious

There is no end to this stupid removal of friction argument, I don’t know if your actual main is GNB but let’s assume it is, what if I complained that the cartridge system is excessive staring at my hotbar and I went into no mercy without double down, obviously bad design cartridges need to go

No one argued that higher end content expected competence. The issue here is players drive that threshold unnecessarily through description that varies.

To complete content in this game you don’t have to be the best of the best. You just have to be good enough. It’s the players, who aren’t even the best of the best pretending that you have to be that inevitably gate content for other players when they don’t meet their own personal standard.

Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

That’s not how that works. Exclusion means gating access, no access was being gated. Two can play dictionary.

You can play any job you want at any skill level you want. If people are mean, report them. For someone supporting a "different perspective other than your own", yours sure seems pretty closed off. "These people had less fun than they do now! Why can't you accept that your enjoyment went down in exchange!".

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.

It is how it works when players inevitably gate access because they don’t allow suboptimal players to complete in content that you don’t actually have to be the best of the best to complete. You just have to be good enough. You see it all over the forums with people openly talking about logs and trying to shame people for not performing to the max of what a job could be performing. It’s not hard to see the implications of it. It’s on display every day, even in game.

Literally had a party last night that was making fun of a viper last night in a learning party that was doing less damage than the set before I arrived. That’s just a recent example. This eventually gets worse over time and as they lack in performance because “they have too much to pay attention to and business” they feel as though they can’t play the class they want due to them not being able to perform and social perception levels of the job. That is gating but may not be directly. There are places I can go, but where I may not be welcomed. Even though I have access or the ability to be where I want, gating can still happen via social expectations and norms (just an example).

Originally Posted by Morr_Ar

I don’t believe players playing suboptimally ‘inevitably’ leads to player exclusion. I watched VPRs drop their NG during the opening weeks of the new raid series, and no one was kicked or publicly criticised. Most FFXIV players are forgiving of suboptimal play, outside of content where playing as optimally as possible becomes more of a requirement.

‘Exclusion’ implies players are blocked from participating in some way, when the issues you have described can be overcome with practice and experience. VPR, even prior to these changes, was on the easier side of job difficulty scale.

Where exclusion might happen is in Savage content or Extremes, where playing closer to optimally becomes more of a requirement - but that expectation is applied to every job.

From what I’ve seen, most players are not very forgiving. Though, you are possibly right, “inevitably” is a bit strong, however I’d also say that it is far more common than people would like to think it is. Most players are concerned about their experience, and their experience only. Fair enough, most of these people here are nothing but 1s and 0s showing up on your screen in a game. They mean nothing more to you in most cases. I also see people talk very poorly about other players in game and remove them from parties because they played sub-optimally. It’s never happened to me personally, but I’ve witnessed it a lot.

“Your DPS is too low, I’m kicking you out” or the Sam has lower dps than the RPR so they kicked the sam. All the while I’m running the parse and the biggest contributor to not meeting requirements was unnecessary deaths.

I can see why when you throw a high APM class with “random” actions to press and “double weaving” it could be problematic. I can see it and that’s why I’m not upset about it. In the grand scheme, to me, they removed a timer. It wasn’t hard, it wasn’t game changing, it was something I made little decisions off of before. It was a mini game. Some people found that hard and stressful, others, not so much.

I personally don’t think any of the classes are particularly difficult with practice, but what I find easy, someone else may not. I don’t knock them for it either. Especially when the change doesn’t really affect my own personal enjoyment of the class. Some found NG fun, and good for them (they could have kept it, extended the timer, or did what they did and got rid of it like they did). Not saying you are knocking people either. Just that other feel gated by the class and probably other players and that it does happen in this game, where you don’t have to be “perfect” outside of maybe ultimates.

I also find it weird that people wanted positionals removed, there was a huge outcry against removing positionals… then they remove NG and didn’t touch positionals… and people are even more upset. It’s just weird to me.

Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

You mean, the learning party for the raid right? Or did you think the "Learning" part applied to pretty much any part of the game?

Yeah, High-End content players will expect you to know your Job. That's why it's High-End. If you wanna learn a job in active content, which is fair, then DT's Expert dungeons are pretty good at keeping you on your toes, and the same goes for the Normal raid. You can learn your job better in those and no one's going to care how well you're playing unless you're actively tanking the floor (luckily, the debuff falling off won't kill you, so that's on you).

If you truly believe that any form of skill (let's pretend tracking a single debuff is high on that list) that can lead to "mean High-end content players" should be pruned, then I hope to see you fight for a lot more job changes across the board. I find Mudras hard. Some tank finds it hard to pick which mitigation to use. I'm sure you could find someone saying the same thing about Heals on Healers, I could go on. But if this is the only subject you feel so strongly about, then ...

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.

If you want me to say “I don’t want to track the debuff” to make you feel better, sure. Considering I track the debuff when I play reaper, or Sam, or whatever other jobs previously also, I doubt that it’s true. However you can have that if that makes you feel better. Doesn’t really change the debate for me.

Anyway, let’s get to the real point.

“High end raiders” can are are pretty full of themselves. Some, rightfully so, others not so much. I probably have far more patience than most people playing this game. I’m also bothered by way less and tend to stick around to help teach people. You say people will not care about how others perform in normal content. We have all seen this to be untrue, at the very least 10 times in the years we’ve probably all played. Players outing people, leaving parties, talking down, making fun of, telling others that they suck. Etc. for very little reason, and even then, most of the high end content doesn’t even require you to be perfect.

If you haven’t… man, that’s a blessed play time you’ve had. I wish I didn’t have to witness what people have done to other people over a video game.

Now, can you please point out where I said high end players would be pruned? I don’t ever remember saying that, or even implying it. I’m also certain that high end players find other ways to optimize because they just enjoy the challenge of completing content at the highest level that they can with whatever class or job they take interest in.

If you’d like me to argue for other things too, then I can do that. However, we’re currently discussing VPR and the issues on both sides of the fence with it.

When all is said and done, there are people happy with the changes, others who are not, and those who a neutral.

Originally Posted by Leonus

If you want me to say “I don’t want to track the debuff” to make you feel better, sure. Considering I track the debug when I play reaper also, I doubt that it’s true. Considering I’ve tracked other debuffs, I also doubt it. However you can have that. That’s fine. Doesn’t really change the debate for me.

Now, can you please point out where I said high end players would be pruned? I don’t ever remember saying that, or even implying it. However, I’m also certain that high end players find other ways to optimize because they just enjoy the challenge of completing content at the highest level that they can with whatever class or job they take interest in.

If you’d like me to argue for other things too, then I can do that. However, we’re currently discussing VPR.

Well I don't need to anymore, you finally came out and and said you didn't want to track the debuff! /s

Please re-read the sentence, skill should be pruned, not players. Your entire point hinges on "Tracking a debuff was difficult, which was excluding players from parties, because sometimes, players are mean". This is where we've successfully landed after a good back and forth. So Job Execution is actually SE's job, not the player's, because we can never truly prevent toxicity. Where do we draw the line? Everyone will find some things more difficult than the rest, some of those things keep us away from Jobs. Either you support simplifying those other jobs, or for some reason only support this one right now, which would make your actions a bit ... hypocritical.

I don't want to believe that your actions are, however, so again, where do we draw the line then? What is so special about the difficulty of tracking Viper's debuff vs Ninja's mudras? vs the infinite sea of Healer oGCDs that all read like they do the same thing to a non-experienced player? vs Dragoon's "Don't drift or start crying" playstyle? What is so special about it. And if you disagree with those examples, welcome to the club. This thread is full of Vipers who think Debuff upkeep wasn't that hard either. I am intentionally exposing my own skill issues here to make a point.

Explain in your words and not flat support of a hypothetical group. Explain how Viper was unique in the changes it needed, so that the same reasoning cannot be applied to other Jobs or mechanics. Then we can have a discussion. But if you can't, stop acting like you're the only one with an open-mind here.