Thread: Viper changes prove 8.0 will not add job complexity

Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

You mean, the learning party for the raid right? Or did you think the "Learning" part applied to pretty much any part of the game?

Yeah, High-End content players will expect you to know your Job. That's why it's High-End. If you wanna learn a job in active content, which is fair, then DT's Expert dungeons are pretty good at keeping you on your toes, and the same goes for the Normal raid. You can learn your job better in those and no one's going to care how well you're playing unless you're actively tanking the floor (luckily, the debuff falling off won't kill you, so that's on you).

If you truly believe that any form of skill (let's pretend tracking a single debuff is high on that list) that can lead to "mean High-end content players" should be pruned, then I hope to see you fight for a lot more job changes across the board. I find Mudras hard. Some tank finds it hard to pick which mitigation to use. I'm sure you could find someone saying the same thing about Heals on Healers, I could go on. But if this is the only subject you feel so strongly about, then ...

Just say you don't want to track the debuff.

If you want me to say “I don’t want to track the debuff” to make you feel better, sure. Considering I track the debuff when I play reaper, or Sam, or whatever other jobs previously also, I doubt that it’s true. However you can have that if that makes you feel better. Doesn’t really change the debate for me.

Anyway, let’s get to the real point.

“High end raiders” can are are pretty full of themselves. Some, rightfully so, others not so much. I probably have far more patience than most people playing this game. I’m also bothered by way less and tend to stick around to help teach people. You say people will not care about how others perform in normal content. We have all seen this to be untrue, at the very least 10 times in the years we’ve probably all played. Players outing people, leaving parties, talking down, making fun of, telling others that they suck. Etc. for very little reason, and even then, most of the high end content doesn’t even require you to be perfect.

If you haven’t… man, that’s a blessed play time you’ve had. I wish I didn’t have to witness what people have done to other people over a video game.

Now, can you please point out where I said high end players would be pruned? I don’t ever remember saying that, or even implying it. I’m also certain that high end players find other ways to optimize because they just enjoy the challenge of completing content at the highest level that they can with whatever class or job they take interest in.

If you’d like me to argue for other things too, then I can do that. However, we’re currently discussing VPR and the issues on both sides of the fence with it.

When all is said and done, there are people happy with the changes, others who are not, and those who a neutral.

Originally Posted by Leonus

If you want me to say “I don’t want to track the debuff” to make you feel better, sure. Considering I track the debug when I play reaper also, I doubt that it’s true. Considering I’ve tracked other debuffs, I also doubt it. However you can have that. That’s fine. Doesn’t really change the debate for me.

Now, can you please point out where I said high end players would be pruned? I don’t ever remember saying that, or even implying it. However, I’m also certain that high end players find other ways to optimize because they just enjoy the challenge of completing content at the highest level that they can with whatever class or job they take interest in.

If you’d like me to argue for other things too, then I can do that. However, we’re currently discussing VPR.

Well I don't need to anymore, you finally came out and and said you didn't want to track the debuff! /s

Please re-read the sentence, skill should be pruned, not players. Your entire point hinges on "Tracking a debuff was difficult, which was excluding players from parties, because sometimes, players are mean". This is where we've successfully landed after a good back and forth. So Job Execution is actually SE's job, not the player's, because we can never truly prevent toxicity. Where do we draw the line? Everyone will find some things more difficult than the rest, some of those things keep us away from Jobs. Either you support simplifying those other jobs, or for some reason only support this one right now, which would make your actions a bit ... hypocritical.

I don't want to believe that your actions are, however, so again, where do we draw the line then? What is so special about the difficulty of tracking Viper's debuff vs Ninja's mudras? vs the infinite sea of Healer oGCDs that all read like they do the same thing to a non-experienced player? vs Dragoon's "Don't drift or start crying" playstyle? What is so special about it. And if you disagree with those examples, welcome to the club. This thread is full of Vipers who think Debuff upkeep wasn't that hard either. I am intentionally exposing my own skill issues here to make a point.

Explain in your words and not flat support of a hypothetical group. Explain how Viper was unique in the changes it needed, so that the same reasoning cannot be applied to other Jobs or mechanics. Then we can have a discussion. But if you can't, stop acting like you're the only one with an open-mind here.