Viper Changes are good, actually

[W00by]

I mean that sound like it's your own fault tbh. They ALWAYS do balance patches in their x.05 patches, and if you are serious about raiding you should have prepaid for that by having a small pool of classes to pick from after the adjustments, or grin and bear it to play the class you like. This goes double for viper since they openly stated nearly a month ago they were going to do some minor reworks.

The removal of the class's core filler mechanic is hardly a "minor rework." They said they would "adjust directional requirements" and "change the effects of some actions."

We had no clue what that was going to mean. Removing a positional from Dreadwinder? Minor rework. Adjusting positional potency or changing Noxious Gash's timer? Minor rework. I would've disliked those things, but I could've lived with them.

Removing a core mechanic from the job? That's not a "minor" rework. And no BRAND NEW JOB has ever been changed to this degree right on release.

No one could've known about this Noxious Gash change and gone "hey static, I might need to switch roles because Yoshi P is gonna nuke my job from orbit!" This isn't anyone's fault but the developers.

[Eudyptes]

The removal of the class's core filler mechanic is hardly a "minor rework." They said they would "adjust directional requirements" and "change the effects of some actions."

We had no clue what that was going to mean. Removing a positional from Dreadwinder? Minor rework. Adjusting positional potency or changing Noxious Gash's timer? Minor rework. I would've disliked those things, but I could've lived with them.

Removing a core mechanic from the job? That's not a "minor" rework. And no BRAND NEW JOB has ever been changed to this degree right on release.

No one could've known about this Noxious Gash change and gone "hey static, I might need to switch roles because Yoshi P is gonna nuke my job from orbit!" This isn't anyone's fault but the developers.

How did it "nuke your job from orbit"? This is the most overdramatic thing I've seen in a long time. You literally only had to be mindful of it once in a 20 sec window every 40 seconds outside of your normal rotation since stuff you should be doing anyway would refresh it. I mean I main mnk in my static and the beast gauge rework altered the flow of my class way more than the removal of this (I have 100 viper as well so I know how it played before and after this change), and it took me all of 30 seconds to readjust. Calm down.

[W00by]

How did it "nuke your job from orbit"? This is the most overdramatic thing I've seen in a long time. You literally only had to be mindful of it once in a 20 sec window every 40 seconds outside of your normal rotation since stuff you should be doing anyway would refresh it. I mean I main mnk in my static and the beast gauge rework altered the flow of my class way more than the removal of this (I have 100 viper as well so I know how it played before and after this change), and it took me all of 30 seconds to readjust. Calm down.

Sorry, nuked the skill ceiling from orbit. A lot of the optimizations players like myself put into just don't exist anymore, and hardcore players like me hate it. I get that you don't care much about optimization, but it isn't about whether the adjustment is big or small. It's about the fact that Square Enix had so little confidence in their own job design that they simplified something after a month -- I mean, really they committed to simplifying it after 6 days.

I don't mean to offend you, but this change doesn't impact players like you as much as players like me. I'm an optimizing Viper main and you aren't, so please don't tell me how I should feel about it. It is much, much more than just "being mindful of it every 20s" in actual hard content. . . which we barely got to do. And even at lower levels, how is 1-1 -> finisher -> 2-2 -> finisher better than having something to pay attention to? I firmly believe this change doesn't benefit anyone, even if it doesn't make the job harder.

[Eudyptes]

Sorry, nuked the skill ceiling from orbit. A lot of the optimizations players like myself put into just don't exist anymore, and hardcore players like me hate it. I get that you don't care much about optimization, but it isn't about whether the adjustment is big or small. It's about the fact that Square Enix had so little confidence in their own job design that they simplified something after a month -- I mean, really they committed to simplifying it after 6 days.

I don't mean to offend you, but this change doesn't impact players like you as much as players like me. I'm an optimizing Viper main and you aren't, so please don't tell me how I should feel about it. It is much, much more than just "being mindful of it every 20s" in actual hard content. . . which we barely got to do. And even at lower levels, how is 1-1 -> finisher -> 2-2 -> finisher better than having something to pay attention to? I firmly believe this change doesn't benefit anyone, even if it doesn't make the job harder.

You're not offending me by making something that was super easy to optimize sound difficult. Hitting "2" on your keyboard once every 40 seconds isn't hard. Nor is hitting it again when you switch off from adds/immunity phases hard. Like, I don't know who you are trying to fool. Viper was the easiest melee to master before the patch, which is actually why I was confused as to why they were even adjusting it in the first place. If anything the hardest part of it was when you first unlocked it and you had everything thrown at you all at once, but after I got over that hump it was literally the easiest melee job I've played in DT and I've got mnk, vpr, nin, and rpr at 100. I mean if you want that challenge then play reaper, it has the same mechanic but "harder" since it's a separate skill and doesn't auto refresh in your normal damage rotation.

[W00by]

You're not offending me by making something that was super easy to optimize sound difficult. Hitting "2" on your keyboard once every 40 seconds isn't hard. Nor is hitting it again when you switch off from adds/immunity phases hard. Like, I don't know who you are trying to fool. Viper was the easiest melee to master before the patch, which is actually why I was confused as to why they were even adjusting it in the first place. If anything the hardest part of it was when you first unlocked it and you had everything thrown at you all at once, but after I got over that hump it was literally the easiest melee job I've played in DT and I've got mnk, vpr, nin, and rpr at 100. I mean if you want that challenge then play reaper, it has the same mechanic but "harder" since it's a separate skill and doesn't auto refresh in your normal damage rotation.

So, two things: One, it was not a button you pressed once every 40s in high end content. When the boss was phasing or there were multiple targets, Noxious Gash was something you had to think about. You couldn't just Dreadwinder willy nilly or you'd overcap, but now it's just something you kinda do whenever you want, which removes thought and engagement from the class. Also, add phases and two target Ultimate phases and stuff like that were much, much more fun before this change, which I know because I took VPR synced into old raids. It would've been much more interesting in savage if Noxious Gash was maintained. I'm not saying these mitigations were some Endwalker Black Mage era black magic optimizations that were soooo insanely hard, but the skill ceiling is indisputably lower.

Two, if it was so easy, why do you care if it was removed? The skill floor is unaffected while the skill ceiling is indisputably lowered. So who does this benefit? It ONLY hurts players at the ceiling while also doing nothing for the skill floor.

Please try and think critically. You may have Viper unlocked, but that does not mean you were an expert on it then or an expert on it now.

[Eudyptes]

So, two things: One, it was not a button you pressed once every 40s in high end content. When the boss was phasing or there were multiple targets, Noxious Gash was something you had to think about. You couldn't just Dreadwinder willy nilly or you'd overcap, but now it's just something you kinda do whenever you want, which removes thought and engagement from the class. Also, add phases and two target Ultimate phases and stuff like that were much, much more fun before this change, which I know because I took VPR synced into old raids. It would've been much more interesting in savage if Noxious Gash was maintained. I'm not saying these mitigations were some Endwalker Black Mage era black magic optimizations that were soooo insanely hard, but the skill ceiling is indisputably lower.

Two, if it was so easy, why do you care if it was removed? The skill floor is unaffected while the skill ceiling is indisputably lowered. So who does this benefit? It ONLY hurts players at the ceiling while also doing nothing for the skill floor.

Please try and think critically. You may have Viper unlocked, but that does not mean you were an expert on it then or an expert on it now.

First and foremost I already stated I was indifferent to the change. That means I don't care that it was removed, and I wouldn't care if it stayed. Why? Because it was not a challenge to keep up. Dreadwinder has a 40 second CD. You want to be doing that as often as possible at sub 20 seconds of the debuff. If it's down, then you use reaving fangs in it's place. That is what I meant by a "20 second window every 40 seconds", because as long as you hit one of those at any point between 20 and 1 of that debuff timer your dps remains unaffected. When adds pop or the boss phases it actually makes very little difference to that, as you just switch who you're doing that to. It was not difficult to do at all cause effectively when you switch targets you just push "2" instead of "1" to reapply it. Stop trying to make it sound like it was some 5head skill ceiling when it absolutely was not.

I played it in raids and EX's, so I don't really know how much higher level content I could have played it in before today. I main mnk so that's where all my gear is going and what I use in progression, but that doesn't mean I don't switch to other classes when I want a change of pace. Hell I even have the stupid skyruin weapons for my vpr which is more than I can say for my nin or rpr atm.

Honestly it was such an insignificant aspect of the class that I'm surprised they even removed it, and that people are freaking out over it this much.