Job simplification

[RancidDax]

I feel that jobs in this game are becoming oversimplified and homogenised. This has been stated before of course, but given the VPR changes it’s more apparent.

Supposedly SE is planning on making jobs have more individualism in 8.0 (yippee 2/3 years wait), and that they want to focus more on making content harder _first_.

Then what is the point over continuing to simplify jobs? With these changes you’re only thinking about decisions to a casual audience whilst giving no job substance to higher end players (or even casual players looking to improve). They’re also locking themself into this to only potentially walk it back in 8.0 (or just make it harder again?)

MNK and BLM were perfect examples of this job design in endwalker.

MNK had optimal drift which wasn’t necessary to learn, but provided further substance for players who wanted it, and players who didn’t follow this could still perform well with basic class knowledge.

The changes they have made to monk have almost entirely stripped this by removing timers and made it simplified to the point where it’s only pandering to casual players.

BLM also had a similar thing with non-standard. Again this was supplementary knowledge for players who wanted to improve and learn more about the job.

Neither of these rotations were required by more casual players as they were ultimately small damage improvements to jobs that _anyone_ could do well with, and could clear any content with.

VPR, a job that has only been out for ~1 month has now has undergone this treatment, and much like MNK has had its buffs stripped and a “bootshine” added.

It seems as if the “difficulty” of these jobs is just bad explanation of the systems they implement and then they overcorrect in the opposite direction and make it even more simplified. (VPR having a “confusing rotation”, but is just poorly implemented, or BLM having mana ticks and changing it to only ICE spells that give mana back).

Not every job has to be for everyone, what’s the point in having the main selling point of your game being the ability to change jobs if you try to make them all the same.

These changes give me conflicting views of what they even want with their own game. You want players to have a bit more trouble with content but still proceed to hold their hand through any tribulations of their own job.

To clarify all this. I don’t want jobs to be entirely difficult. I want the room to HAVE difficulty. Jobs should be easy to pick up and hard to master, and at the moment SE is doing neither of those things.

[Inputnamehere]

I believe their current standard of "job balancing" is to keep the gap between skill ceiling and bottom as close as possible, so we don't see "very good players" who overperform everyone else. Cause if there are "very good players," somebody will naturally become "very bad players," and people will complain.

Job homogenization and fixed rotation/burst window not only help with such design, but also make further adjustments easy as pie. Just see the recent "job changes". All they have to do is to give some ±potency, and done. Imagine if every job is unique like we dreamed, then doing balance work will be hell.


This is a PvE game though. I do hope to see some unbalanced but fun ways to play, instead of the current stagnancy. I've been hoping for something like a talent tree since long ago.

Now, I can't express anything further towards whoever's doing the job designs without being rude. So I'll shut up.

[TheDustyOne]

Part of me wants to go full scorched earth, pull an ARR on the job design, and design it all from the ground up with a new design ethos, using only remnants and base ideas from the previous iteration.

Yes I know just how much of a monkeys paw wish that would be, I really, REALLY don't trust Square with such a task.

[CaptainLagbeard]

As someone who has played healers, I kind of want to go full scorched earth and encourage them to keep going with the simplification. Every Job should be reduced to just 2-3 buttons.

[Tunda]

The idea is they don't get it when simplifying jobs

Healers should get simplify healing kit not DPS

They got it wrong all this time

[ovIm]

It's maddening. A few months ago Yoshi-P said that they were done with oversimplifications, and now, about a month after Viper was released, they already simplify it and removing core gameplay parts of its identity. I feel like I am dropped in Bizarroland where nothing makes sense anymore.

[RancidDax]

I believe their current standard of "job balancing" is to keep the gap between skill ceiling and bottom as close as possible, so we don't see "very good players" who overperform everyone else. Cause if there are "very good players," somebody will naturally become "very bad players," and people will complain.

Job homogenization and fixed rotation/burst window not only help with such design, but also make further adjustments easy as pie. Just see the recent "job changes". All they have to do is to give some ±potency, and done. Imagine if every job is unique like we dreamed, then doing balance work will be hell.


This is a PvE game though. I do hope to see some unbalanced but fun ways to play, instead of the current stagnancy. I've been hoping for something like a talent tree since long ago.

Now, I can't express anything further towards whoever's doing the job designs without being rude. So I'll shut up.

I feel like this could be addressed with just more experimentation. Or even an actual viable way to get job feedback without needing to wait for the publics reception. Maybe instead of a media tour a closed (or open) beta test. I agree the balance work would be terrible, and it's not that easy to implement jobs that inherently have optimisable aspects (except timers/DoTs which they apparently are vehemently against).

[CamuiKushi]

It's maddening. A few months ago Yoshi-P said that they were done with oversimplifications, and now, about a month after Viper was released, they already simplify it and removing core gameplay parts of its identity. I feel like I am dropped in Bizarroland where nothing makes sense anymore.

I believe these statements were probably made when job design for DT was already locked in and unable to be course corrected. That's the general feeling I had when he made those comments: this feels too late in the development cycle to be reflective of the experience we'll have in Dawntrail.

Edit: Completely unrelated, I love your miqo's aesthetic, Dax.

[Raikai]

Part of me wants to go full scorched earth, pull an ARR on the job design, and design it all from the ground up with a new design ethos, using only remnants and base ideas from the previous iteration.

Yes I know just how much of a monkeys paw wish that would be, I really, REALLY don't trust Square with such a task.

It's really a wet dream and a big risk that I'd love to see.

I mean, given their plans, in theory, the best time to do this would be in 8.0 since they'll focus on job play.

But then, can we really expect anything drastic to happen? I don't think. But I'd absolutely love to be surprised.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I believe their current standard of "job balancing" is to keep the gap between skill ceiling and bottom as close as possible, so we don't see "very good players" who overperform everyone else. Cause if there are "very good players," somebody will naturally become "very bad players," and people will complain.

Job homogenization and fixed rotation/burst window not only help with such design, but also make further adjustments easy as pie. Just see the recent "job changes". All they have to do is to give some ±potency, and done. Imagine if every job is unique like we dreamed, then doing balance work will be hell.


This is a PvE game though. I do hope to see some unbalanced but fun ways to play, instead of the current stagnancy. I've been hoping for something like a talent tree since long ago.

Now, I can't express anything further towards whoever's doing the job designs without being rude. So I'll shut up.

Cannot upvote this enough.

People sometimes overlook that some people just "aren't good" at the game; and the level of practice needed to meet the standards of others often takes longer then the content is relevant. Sadly the idea of job balancing is a constant act when you add new job interactions/actions. Part of the issue with the Healer strike is everyone thinks that every tank runs a dungeon without a healer because a hardcore warrior player did it. Reality is there are quite a few Warriors that can - and part of that is due to how "vanilla" the warrior job is - its the summoner of tanks and doing that with a DRK for example is likely a far smaller subset of players that meet that bar.

But yeah its fun when you go and realize you can sync your class design with all other classes in the same role - see Tanks.