Viper Changes Thread - Share your thoughts

[Wasabi_23]

tldr:
• Snake Scales in PVE Viper please. PVE Viper needs a mitigation, carbon copy of how the skill performs is fine. Homage to removed skill Hissatsu: Seigen
• World-swallower to gapclose with a 10-yalm 10k potency damage + Heavy proc, yes please.
• Grant guard pierce for First-Second-Third-Fourth Generation weaponskills like how First-Second-Third-Fourth Legacy weaponskills do. The risk in staying within enemy range during a melee already presents itself to be a risk/reward to utilized these weaponskills. Present potency for these skills levels do not present a concern for PVP balancing.
• Generation/Legacy weaponskills are an option for the player to use, players can easily just World-swallower followed with Ouroboros and treat it like a typical Limitbreak (10k potency with Heavy proc + 10k potency to end LB state, 20k potency is normative Limitbreak potency).

[Lyth]

In Endwalker, people complained about Arcane Crest (in addition to positional counts and APM) in order to justify large scale nerfs to RPR. It's fairly obvious that the dev team learnt from those earlier lessons. Every melee job since the time of SAM's release has come under intense scrutiny, because people are that competitive. It dies down after an expansion or so, but that initial impression is always important.

It doesn't matter if the job is completely undertuned in terms of defensive actions and utility. That's not what it's there for.

[Carighan]

So, assuming that deeper mechanical changes are off the table, I'd like to see at least the following things (or something similar) to add more "flavour" to the job:

* As a snake-themed job, base it on debuffs, not buffs. Remove all current buffs. No replacement. Instead, have multiple stacking DoTs, damage-taken-increased debuffs (this basically offsets not having the damage-dealth buff), and see below for a special one.
* The job has a trait that uniquely upgrades Bloodbath to Leeching Poison. On application it causes a 20s debuff that causes attacks against this target to heal for a portion of damage dealt, by all sources, twice as strong for the applying Viper.
* As the +GCD speed buff is gone without replacement, the differentiation between DW and 2H is inherently stronger. To offset the slower speed, note the multiple stacking DoTs from the first point.
* Another unique upgrade to a role skill via a trait: True North -> Disorientating Poison. The Viper applying this debuff can ignore positional requirements against this target. It lasts 15s, but is removed upon utilizing its effect. However, so long as the positional was correctly hit anyways, its immediately reapplied with the duration reset to full. In other words, while it only affects one attack it can be applied pre-emptively as so long as you hit your positionals it'll keep being reset, until it gets used because you could not hit one.
* A proper wave-y travel for Slither.

This would not be a massive mechanical change. Mostly GCD is slower to augment the feel of using the 2H attacks, and all buffs are replaced by debuffs with the damage largely shifted into a whole array of DoTs applied to the target. More "viper-y".

If I get to make a larger rework, my main three key points would be:

* Make DW faster, base 2.0s GCD, no buff needed. Make them hit weaker, and visually show multiple damage numbers if ther animation implies multiple hits (server can still process it as a single attack for performance reasons, client shows the damage split into X numbers aligned with the animation).
* Make 2H slower, base 4.0s GCD (so double). Hits very hard in turn, really showing off that you're now wielding a 2H weapon.
* Debuffs that are applied in the DW setup quickly and stacked get used up by the already big hitting 2H attacks to make them hit even larger (like removing a DoT and adding all the remaining damage to the 2H hit damage).

[Lyth]

VPR does not require a rework, especially considering SE's track record with reworks. I would much rather they not touch the job at all (outside of reinstituting NG, if they're willing), and then build iteratively on the existing design next expansion.

If you want to play armchair job designer, it's better to submit your ideas in the form of a new job design proposal from scratch instead of alienating the existing audience of a current job.

[Carighan]

If you want to play armchair job designer, it's better to submit your ideas in the form of a new job design proposal from scratch instead of alienating the existing audience of a current job.

I mean, considering all current players cannot have an actual job identity to latch onto with the job utterly and completely lacking one, it's not like there's something keeping them on the job.

[DeltaCyan]

Four months later. I still stand by my opinion that this job was gutted too harshly on a knee-jerk reaction. And the devs silence on the feedback speaks volumes.

Yoship outright said they didn't use player feedback in consideration for removing noxious gash, and now it feels like they're just hoping the community forgets it ever happened. It's the same thing that happened with Kaiten and it gives me no hope for the future of job design.

I love this game to death but its genuinely sad to see them doubling down on this.

[VerySadDRG]

It's the same thing that happened with Kaiten and it gives me no hope for the future of job design.

I love this game to death but its genuinely sad to see them doubling down on this.

Welp, its tripling down already with DRG changes. Job design is disgustingly boring rn, and all that talk Yoshida gives about "job identity in 8.0" looks like a joke after all those changes.

But let's hope Square doesn't go back to "removing busyness of VPR" like they did with DRG.

[ovIm]

Four months later. I still stand by my opinion that this job was gutted too harshly on a knee-jerk reaction. And the devs silence on the feedback speaks volumes.

Yoship outright said they didn't use player feedback in consideration for removing noxious gash, and now it feels like they're just hoping the community forgets it ever happened. It's the same thing that happened with Kaiten and it gives me no hope for the future of job design.

Welp, its tripling down already with DRG changes. Job design is disgustingly boring rn, and all that talk Yoshida gives about "job identity in 8.0" looks like a joke after all those changes.

But let's hope Square doesn't go back to "removing busyness of VPR" like they did with DRG.

I've read somewhere else on the forum that it feels like the only feedback taken into consideration is those of some playtesters, and it really rings rather true. Instead of appeasing fans of certain gameplay styles for a job, they try to make every job appeal to as many people as possible.
Especially with the DRG changes this patch it destroys any hope for 8.0 changing things significantly. Why should we even be excited for new classes if they will be gutted within a month like Viper did?