Viper Changes Thread - Share your thoughts

[Taranok]

This JUST came to my mind, too, but does this change even ACCOMPLISH anything for accessibility? They cite that people found the alternating combos "harder than average" for a melee DPS, so what they did was:

Replace a timer people had to look at and keep track of...

with a timer people have to look at and keep track of?

Think about it. Anyone who was struggling with Viper because they couldn't handle alternating without staring at the Vipersight Gauge (or didn't LIKE the Vipersight Gauge) will struggle MORE now. You have to look at the Vipersight Gauge MORE OFTEN, since it now has 3 step stages rather than 2, and you'll be alternating the first combo steps MORE OFTEN (since you didn't have to Dread Fangs that often with Dreadwinder anyways). If you are coming out of a Reawaken, burst phase, or boss downtime phase and don't remember if you started with Steel Fangs or Reaving Fangs most recently, you'll have to look at either your Buff Bar (with the dreaded TIMERS!!!! that they wanted to get rid of SO BADLY!!!!) or your Vipersight gauge (which they ADMIT was confusing people!!!).

This change. Accomplishes. NOTHING. It will not help the players who were struggling. And it makes the job more boring for players who were at a higher end.

What the -- pardon my French -- heck, devs?

1, due to awakening and how it works, the 40s timer with 20s refresh made it awkward to launch awakening whenever. 2, 40s buff durations meant that you could shockingly easily drop the 3-step combo buff. If you, say, double awakening into triple uncoiled fury and then threw into...oh, it's called vicewinder now...end with that, you could drop the combo ender buffs. Either way, it is shockingly easy to run down the clock on the baseline combo buffs while still maintaining your other buffs. As for noxious gnash, I was kind of expecting it to stack up to 1m of debuff. But man am I happy they just straight up removed that garbage buff.

Also I find it funny how you think it will be harder to play. They straight made it a rocker-rocker-nested rocker rotation. 2-2-2, 1-1-1, 2-2-1, 1-1-2. It's actually more consistent now even though they literally could merge the 1 step combo buff with the 3 step, and make it only consume the buff on step 3. In a roundabout way, Viper has turned into a mishmash of Reaper's burst with Ninja's GCD and Monk's rotation. Considering no one has to stare at boss debuffs anymore to play the class, it's definitely easier. Though I can't wait to hear about how viper sucks in TOP because they added 2 more personal buffs. No clue if they stack or not, really hope they don't and are simply consumed.

[Rhael]

due to awakening and how it works, the 40s timer with 20s refresh made it awkward to launch awakening whenever.

Good. That's literally just good job design. It shouldn't be free and zero-thought.

2, 40s buff durations meant that you could shockingly easily drop the 3-step combo buff. If you, say, double awakening into triple uncoiled fury and then threw into...oh, it's called vicewinder now...end with that, you could drop the combo ender buffs.

So don't do that. It's that easy. Simply don't enter reawaken at a time that results in dropping something.

[Taranok]

Good. That's literally just good job design. It shouldn't be free and zero-thought.



So don't do that. It's that easy. Simply don't enter reawaken at a time that results in dropping something.

It's not free or zero thought? I think you vastly overestimate the average skill of the playerbase. A mistake the devs made with DT, EW, and HW. Having traps built into the class is something the devs have been trying to remove since HW taught them that trap class design is bad for the game.

[Zerovii]

It's not free or zero thought? I think you vastly overestimate the average skill of the playerbase. A mistake the devs made with DT, EW, and HW. Having traps built into the class is something the devs have been trying to remove since HW taught them that trap class design is bad for the game.

The ability to make minor mistakes isnt a trap.

[Rhael]

I think you vastly overestimate the average skill of the playerbase.

I don't. However, I am aware as to the fact that the average skill is as low as it is by choice, not because of how the game is designed. The vast majority of the playerbase does not wish to engage with the game on any meaningful level. There's a world of difference between not wanting to play the game and genuinely low skill.

Having traps built into the class

Not allowing you to make one of the stupidest possible rotational choices is not a "trap." I'm sorry, but if you think juggling a handful of buffs and debuffs is a "trap," then you probably shouldn't be playing or discussing this game as you are clearly unqualified. The sheer possibility of making even the smallest of mistakes is not a trap or a mistake on the part of the game. Please stop discussing things you know less than nothing about.

The vast majority of this playerbase doesn't actually want to engage with this game in any meaningful way.

Case in point:

You won't have to stare at boss debuffs, for one. That's a pretty big win

You unironically consider not engaging in a fundamental game mechanic as a win.

[W00by]

1, due to awakening and how it works, the 40s timer with 20s refresh made it awkward to launch awakening whenever. 2, 40s buff durations meant that you could shockingly easily drop the 3-step combo buff. If you, say, double awakening into triple uncoiled fury and then threw into...oh, it's called vicewinder now...end with that, you could drop the combo ender buffs. Either way, it is shockingly easy to run down the clock on the baseline combo buffs while still maintaining your other buffs. As for noxious gnash, I was kind of expecting it to stack up to 1m of debuff. But man am I happy they just straight up removed that garbage buff.

Also I find it funny how you think it will be harder to play. They straight made it a rocker-rocker-nested rocker rotation. 2-2-2, 1-1-1, 2-2-1, 1-1-2. It's actually more consistent now even though they literally could merge the 1 step combo buff with the 3 step, and make it only consume the buff on step 3. In a roundabout way, Viper has turned into a mishmash of Reaper's burst with Ninja's GCD and Monk's rotation. Considering no one has to stare at boss debuffs anymore to play the class, it's definitely easier. Though I can't wait to hear about how viper sucks in TOP because they added 2 more personal buffs. No clue if they stack or not, really hope they don't and are simply consumed.

I don't think it will be harder to play. I think it will be harder for people who were already struggling because this change doesn't help anything in terms of the visual design of the class. You'll have just as much stuff to look at, so you removed it for no reason.

Also, I don't need you to explain to me that you could drop the enhanced combo finisher. You can look at my logs if you wanna know how much I know about Viper. But is it really so bad that it was not good to just spam Uncoiled Fury for no reason? Was it really that bad to have to keep track of your combo finisher's timers? Dropping it only lost you 100 potency. Why does it have to be IMPOSSIBLE to mess up in this game?

I LIKED coming out of Reawaken and having to choose between using Uncoiled Fury, Dreadwinder, or continuing my combo. I LIKED looking at the timer. I LIKED having to think about LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL. And regardless of your thoughts about Noxious Gash, it was one of the only things this job had to do in filler.

This change is buns.

[Magusware]

I LIKED coming out of Reawaken and having to choose between using Uncoiled Fury, Dreadwinder, or continuing my combo. I LIKED looking at the timer. I LIKED having to think about LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL. And regardless of your thoughts about Noxious Gash, it was one of the only things this job had to do in filler.

This is exactly what made Viper interesting. The choices, what is the best choice.

[W00by]

This is exactly what made Viper interesting. The choices, what is the best choice.

So true. So many people "complaining" probably didn't play Viper at a higher level, but for me, it was really fun realizing: "Oh, shoot. If I Uncoiled Fury 2 times after this burst instead of one, I either have to drop my enhanced Combo Finisher or I have to drop Noxious Gash. Guess I have to save it!"

There are even fights in the game RIGHT NOW (or I guess WERE, now that Noxious Gash is gone) that forced you to make this decision. Honey B. Lovely's first heart phase ends with an out at the very end of 2 minutes, so naturally, you might want to Uncoiled Fury there not to drop uptime. But using an extra UF here caused you to drop your enhanced Combo Finisher. So you have a three way choice: move out and wait to move back and hit your combo? Move out and intentionally drop your Combo Finisher venom, but potentially gain a GCD in the fight by using UF? Try to enter your burst without a combo rolling so you don't have to worry about dropping one by using Dreadwinder right after burst? Or just play REALLY mechanically tight and not have to use the UF to move out?

That's one mechanic that had SO many neat permutations of play. With the new 60s combo finishers, that's gone. It's just:

oh lol i gotta move out? uncoiled fury go brrrrrr

GARBAGE changes across the board. I'm harping too much on Noxious Gash, but these combo finisher ones suck, too.

[Taranok]

I don't think it will be harder to play. I think it will be harder for people who were already struggling because this change doesn't help anything in terms of the visual design of the class. You'll have just as much stuff to look at, so you removed it for no reason.

Also, I don't need you to explain to me that you could drop the enhanced combo finisher. You can look at my logs if you wanna know how much I know about Viper. But is it really so bad that it was not good to just spam Uncoiled Fury for no reason? Was it really that bad to have to keep track of your combo finisher's timers? Dropping it only lost you 100 potency. Why does it have to be IMPOSSIBLE to mess up in this game?

I LIKED coming out of Reawaken and having to choose between using Uncoiled Fury, Dreadwinder, or continuing my combo. I LIKED looking at the timer. I LIKED having to think about LITERALLY ANYTHING AT ALL. And regardless of your thoughts about Noxious Gash, it was one of the only things this job had to do in filler.

This change is buns.

You won't have to stare at boss debuffs, for one. That's a pretty big win since all of your pertinent UI information is available in the class UI or on your hotkeys themselves. And you may have liked looking at your UI to choose which thing to refresh next. I personally was whatever on it and was mostly expecting combo finishers to be extended since that's the only trap I regularly walked into. But the devs have actual metrics, actual data on what's happening on vipers. And this was clearly a pretty major problem if they'd devote the first major patch to removing noxious gnash and increasing buff timers to delete this problem. But hey, you got to keep positionals that have entire bosses and boss mechanics that ignore them anyways.

[W00by]

You won't have to stare at boss debuffs, for one. That's a pretty big win since all of your pertinent UI information is available in the class UI or on your hotkeys themselves. And you may have liked looking at your UI to choose which thing to refresh next. I personally was whatever on it and was mostly expecting combo finishers to be extended since that's the only trap I regularly walked into. But the devs have actual metrics, actual data on what's happening on vipers. And this was clearly a pretty major problem if they'd devote the first major patch to removing noxious gnash and increasing buff timers to delete this problem. But hey, you got to keep positionals that have entire bosses and boss mechanics that ignore them anyways.

You're right: the devs do have player metrics about Viper. Player metrics that show that it was the most successful job launch the game has ever had and the current most popular job. Surely Noxious Gash wasn't a "huge problem" keeping people from playing the class, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't have quadruple the amount of Ninjas playing right now. Even Pictomancer is struggling to keep up and it's ALSO a shiny new DPS job. There was no reason to change it so soon. In fact, plenty of people that might've liked Noxious Gash didn't even get to finish leveling the job to 100, so who knows what they would've thought? Certainly not Square's "actual metrics."

And, for the record? A month ago, they also thought it would be a good idea to remove positionals, and feedback showed them that they were wrong about that. So their "actual data" clearly isn't infallible. If that change was wrong, this one could be too.

And it is, for what it's worth. (Also, imagine complaining about having to stare at boss debuffs. You can move where debuffs are and even set it so only yours show up... this would never be prohibitive to someone who actually took the time to set up their class. And it's not like Viper is the only one who ever has to.)