Viper Changes Thread - Share your thoughts

[OliverQ]

I enjoy the Viper animations and the speed of the Reawaken burst, but it definitely feels like something is missing to make it engaging. It's a very simple, auto-pilot job.

[Carighan]

I enjoy the Viper animations and the speed of the Reawaken burst, but it definitely feels like something is missing to make it engaging. It's a very simple, auto-pilot job.

I call it "Boring Reaper", and to me that really encompasses all of it.

It has movement. But worse and importantly, with no unique identity.

It has core combos. But without any identity, and providing no job fantasy. Unless you count how spammy it is in the combat flyout text due to the spam of self-buffs.

It has no utility. None.

It has no support. None.

It has ... nothing, really. Being a fast melee job is far from unique, being a damage-only melee job isn't unique, it's just a big empty shell that someone could fill a melee job into if they felt like it. It's one interesting element, the swap between two different GCD timers, is neither unique (Reaper for example does that already, as do Ninjas and Dancers), nor done in a combat-flow-impacting manner.

There's not a single thing Viper does better than Reaper, and importantly it's also so boring that you fall asleep, so while it could deal higher damage, so could other jobs where you wouldn't let your group down by, well, dozing off.

It doesn't even have a randomized main combo, which could have been it's one saving grace! It could have been melee dancer. But noooo, that'd be too difficult, can't do actual difficulty of play!

[Ramiee]

That's pretty funny considering Reaper is also an auto pilot job. The fact we now have a melee even easier than Reaper is so funny.

[Carighan]

That's pretty funny considering Reaper is also an auto pilot job. The fact we now have a melee even easier than Reaper is so funny.

Oh yeah that was my point with that comparison. Sorry, should have made that more clear. Reaper was already - for a reason - correctly criticized as being too simplistic and automated. And Viper is a strictly simpler, less flexible, less useful and less impactful version of a similar design paradigm.

[jonimated]

Oh yeah that was my point with that comparison. Sorry, should have made that more clear. Reaper was already - for a reason - correctly criticized as being too simplistic and automated. And Viper is a strictly simpler, less flexible, less useful and less impactful version of a similar design paradigm.

I have literally gone BACK to playing Reaper after the 7.05 Viper changes, because I find Reaper to be more engaging. A sentence I never thought I'd say.

I just couldn't with Viper. I tried, really, but it's just so unbelievable dull now. It doesn't have a strong enough job identity to be as boring as it is to play. At least with Reaper even though you can say it's simplistic in it's design it also has one of the strongest job identities in the game. Viper is boring to play with, and boring to play as. It has nothing going for it anymore.

[LisseyCrowe]

I call it "Boring Reaper", and to me that really encompasses all of it.

It has movement. But worse and importantly, with no unique identity.

It has core combos. But without any identity, and providing no job fantasy. Unless you count how spammy it is in the combat flyout text due to the spam of self-buffs.

It has no utility. None.

It has no support. None.

It has ... nothing, really. Being a fast melee job is far from unique, being a damage-only melee job isn't unique, it's just a big empty shell that someone could fill a melee job into if they felt like it. It's one interesting element, the swap between two different GCD timers, is neither unique (Reaper for example does that already, as do Ninjas and Dancers), nor done in a combat-flow-impacting manner.

There's not a single thing Viper does better than Reaper, and importantly it's also so boring that you fall asleep, so while it could deal higher damage, so could other jobs where you wouldn't let your group down by, well, dozing off.

It doesn't even have a randomized main combo, which could have been it's one saving grace! It could have been melee dancer. But noooo, that'd be too difficult, can't do actual difficulty of play!

I agree and disagree with this.

On one hand, it does feel like Viper at its very core was but a mishmash of other jobs (more precisely, Sam, Reaper and a bit of Monk). It didn't really bring anything necessarily new to the table, and in fact despite stealing ideas from those other jobs it did not expand on those concepts much.

But I disagree that the job lacked an identity, even if we can argue that it didn't nail it completely. Imo, the marriage of admittedly simpler mechanics and how easy it is for the job to be in a state of near-permanent aggression feels great in a way that none of the other Melee jobs can for me. Mind you, I'm not talking about APM here, but rather how Viper lacks a major mechanic dictating how the rest of its kit should play, going instead for a set of simple guidelines to follow which oddly enough did give the job rather fluid gameplay by forcing the player to adapt moment-to-moment rather than simply repeat the same song every 1-2 minute.

Which is also why I still heavily dislike the changes, as the removal of those guidelines has neutered that fluidity as far as I'm concerned. What used to be certain windows of time where certain abilities should and shouldn't be used (and how they shaped the next rotations) has now shifted to simply making sure resources aren't capped.

[Ramiee]

Personally I think RPRs enshroud is very bad but I love reawaken.
Main reason I hate enshroud is because it feels disjointed especially now with that added spike move at 92 and the cast always felt weird, while Reawaken is on buttons you use regularly and starts fast and ends fast.
It's like Ten Chi Jin on Ninja or Dissipation on Scholar to me, they mess with the flow of what like about the job (primarily for RPR and VPR the simplicity and lack of oGCDs.)

[Mondschnee]

Just chiming in to say that I still dislike the Viper changes. The debuff gave the job a little bit more micro management that made the job feel more engaging, and the absence of it is felt, especially at level 80 and below.

Please revert the changes to version 7.01.

[Wasabi_23]

Please give PVE Viper the ability “Snake Scales” from PVP. A carbon copy of the ability is fine, it’ll give a refreshing concept of a mitigation that offers a risk/reward concept to it (forfeit mobility for rigid defense, absorb damage to counter). And in some way or fashion, it brings back sentiments with how the removed skill Hissatsu: Seigen used to serve for Samurai.

PVP Viper is genuinely very fun to play. It plays like a scrapper, where you poke and pick at enemies from a distance with Uncoiled Fury/Rattling Coil/Uncoiled Fury while periodically buffing that ranged weaponskill with Slither. Gapclosing in to momentarily pick with Hunter’s Snap/Swiftskin’s Coil and following up with Serpent’s Tail with each respectively, then dash out, feels good. The Limitbreak generation gameplay of the class, the core foundation, feels great. But imho I feel that the LB could use a buff to further identify what it also does but it isn’t highlighted very well: Guard Piercing.

World-swallower is a gapclosing Limitbreak that damages for 10k potency and applies Heavy on contact within a 5-yalm radius. This could be adjusted to be 8-10 yalms, imho, since it’s a Limitbreak and could use that extra distance on teamplay to apply damage and Heavy to get things started. Most Limitbreaks that present themselves like World-swallower are 10-yalms or more, so 5-yalms is relatively small as upfront damage.

The identity of the Limitbreak is this power fantasy of the follow-up flashy swordplay with the Generation/Legacy weaponskills after World-swallower, but for what it is worth it’s the Legacy component of the weaponskills that guard pierce. Please allow both Generation and Legacy weaponskills during this Awakened state to guard pierce, as this will help further identify Viper’s place as one of the few PVP classes that can potentially bypass guard. 12k potency for guard piercing is pretty weak, furthering identifying this core concept of the Limit Break should be extended. There is no harm in doing so to apply such a buff like this for both Generation/Legacy skills since it is more harmful than beneficial for players to stick to another player/team for too long as it leaves you vulnerable to a counter attack/burst and you’re whittled down because you prolonged your close-quarters melee. 32k potency total is not a high benchmark for guard piercing since most teams and classes have mitigation spells/abilities that lower damage potency already.

Realistically speaking, in terms of team burst with Viper as a scrapper, diving in and then diving out, utilizing the Generation/Legacy skills is an option to guard pierce/apply more damage if needed. But if you’re just going in for a quick LB World-swallower to begin and then Ouroboros to end is just fine.

[Wasabi_23]

tldr:
• Snake Scales in PVE Viper please. PVE Viper needs a mitigation, carbon copy of how the skill performs is fine. Homage to removed skill Hissatsu: Seigen
• World-swallower to gapclose with a 10-yalm 10k potency damage + Heavy proc, yes please.
• Grant guard pierce for First-Second-Third-Fourth Generation weaponskills like how First-Second-Third-Fourth Legacy weaponskills do. The risk in staying within enemy range during a melee already presents itself to be a risk/reward to utilized these weaponskills. Present potency for these skills levels do not present a concern for PVP balancing.
• Generation/Legacy weaponskills are an option for the player to use, players can easily just World-swallower followed with Ouroboros and treat it like a typical Limitbreak (10k potency with Heavy proc + 10k potency to end LB state, 20k potency is normative Limitbreak potency).