Viper Changes Thread - Share your thoughts

[CKNovel]

Not really the exact same thing.

Before the change you had to plan Dreadwinder (Vicewinder) to lose the least amount of Noxious gash timer.
Today you just don't care about Dreadwinder usage, you use it on cooldown or to refresh your buffs as fast as possible.

It was basically a puzzle of "How can I refresh the least amount of Noxious gash without dropping Noxious Gash?", which was fun to me.
I wish they would have eased the management of Noxious gash instead of removing them, positionnals can and must stay.

[Carighan]

Not really the exact same thing.

Before the change you had to plan Dreadwinder (Vicewinder) to lose the least amount of Noxious gash timer.
Today you just don't care about Dreadwinder usage, you use it on cooldown or to refresh your buffs as fast as possible.

It was basically a puzzle of "How can I refresh the least amount of Noxious gash without dropping Noxious Gash?", which was fun to me.
I wish they would have eased the management of Noxious gash instead of removing them, positionnals can and must stay.

Again, it's the exact same thing gameplay wise. You list the consideration that goes into building the static rotation, but once you did this, you internalize the button sequence and you're done. And that's the thing, nothing has changed. Before you had a braindead static approach to how you play, now you have a braindead static approach to how you play, the core flaw in a gameplay system (as a whole) where all but 1 jobs are based on static rotations while those rotations have no interactive or reactionary components to at least have branching paths or so, and all fights you engage with are built around these static rotations to engage with them.

It's extra wild for the particular job of Viper, which is so to diverging from this exactly-all-the-same-gameplay setup they've opted for their melee jobs where even your hotbars can be largely mirrored from one another with only superficial changes between jobs. And Viper was nearly there. If left-vs-right were actually random (and as a result managing Noxious Gash would not have had a static solution), the job would have something to set it apart from all the other melees. The dancer of melee jobs, so to speak. But that's not what they went for, instead it's autocombo-monk merged with autocombo-reaper and 0 imagination.

And as a result, frankly, the changes don't matter either way IMO. The job is so crucially flawed at a very deep level, these surface-level changes such as removing Noxious Gash just don't make a dent. But then, the issues pervasive to Viper gameplay are issues shared by at least all melee jobs, if not all (but 1) DPS jobs. And as a result the whole gameplay setup for combat in FFXIV and how its fights are designed.

[TheAmazing3]

Again, it's the exact same thing gameplay wise. You list the consideration that goes into building the static rotation, but once you did this, you internalize the button sequence and you're done. And that's the thing, nothing has changed. Before you had a braindead static approach to how you play, now you have a braindead static approach to how you play, the core flaw in a gameplay system (as a whole) where all but 1 jobs are based on static rotations while those rotations have no interactive or reactionary components to at least have branching paths or so, and all fights you engage with are built around these static rotations to engage with them.

I see a lot of this argument "braindead job is still braindead, nothing changed" but the fundamental flaw in this logic is that there was a point of failure that existed and punished sub-optimal play that no longer exists. It doesn't matter that the end result would be similar (I disagree that it is, but let's follow your argument here) in how you approach the rotation, you could drop drop your noxious gnash before and be punished for it with lower damage, now you cannot. The skill floor for executing the rotation has gone up an extra couple of notches from the handful of notches below the skill ceiling where it was.

[Exinias]

Again, it's the exact same thing gameplay wise. You list the consideration that goes into building the static rotation, but once you did this, you internalize the button sequence and you're done. And that's the thing, nothing has changed. Before you had a braindead static approach to how you play, now you have a braindead static approach to how you play, the core flaw in a gameplay system (as a whole) where all but 1 jobs are based on static rotations while those rotations have no interactive or reactionary components to at least have branching paths or so, and all fights you engage with are built around these static rotations to engage with them.

It's extra wild for the particular job of Viper, which is so to diverging from this exactly-all-the-same-gameplay setup they've opted for their melee jobs where even your hotbars can be largely mirrored from one another with only superficial changes between jobs. And Viper was nearly there. If left-vs-right were actually random (and as a result managing Noxious Gash would not have had a static solution), the job would have something to set it apart from all the other melees. The dancer of melee jobs, so to speak. But that's not what they went for, instead it's autocombo-monk merged with autocombo-reaper and 0 imagination.

And as a result, frankly, the changes don't matter either way IMO. The job is so crucially flawed at a very deep level, these surface-level changes such as removing Noxious Gash just don't make a dent. But then, the issues pervasive to Viper gameplay are issues shared by at least all melee jobs, if not all (but 1) DPS jobs. And as a result the whole gameplay setup for combat in FFXIV and how its fights are designed.

"Exact same thing gameplay-wise" is wrong. The first action of your basic combo alternates every single time now, like MNK's dragon kick and leaping opo. Before, if you were alternating between Noxious gnash and steel fangs everytime, you were doing the rotation wrong.

[ovIm]

"Exact same thing gameplay-wise" is wrong. The first action of your basic combo alternates every single time now, like MNK's dragon kick and leaping opo. Before, if you were alternating between Noxious gnash and steel fangs everytime, you were doing the rotation wrong.

And this is why I will always stand with my opinion of "if you truly believe nothing has changed gameplay wise, you played Viper wrong before the changes."

A noticeably decision making process has been eliminated from the rotation, the job now pretty much guides you through everything as if you were a tourist. Such an unfulfilling, boring gameplay now, the only thing the class has is its GCD speed.

[jonimated]

Again, it's the exact same thing gameplay wise. You list the consideration that goes into building the static rotation, but once you did this, you internalize the button sequence and you're done. And that's the thing, nothing has changed. Before you had a braindead static approach to how you play, now you have a braindead static approach to how you play, the core flaw in a gameplay system (as a whole) where all but 1 jobs are based on static rotations while those rotations have no interactive or reactionary components to at least have branching paths or so, and all fights you engage with are built around these static rotations to engage with them.

This is a dumb argument. I'm sorry, but it always has been and always will be. If making a changes didn't actually affect anything then the change didn't need to be made in the first place.

The job is so crucially flawed at a very deep level, these surface-level changes such as removing Noxious Gash just don't make a dent. But then, the issues pervasive to Viper gameplay are issues shared by at least all melee jobs, if not all (but 1) DPS jobs. And as a result the whole gameplay setup for combat in FFXIV and how its fights are designed.

Now this I do agree with. That the Viper, and most jobs, are so deeply flawed at this point. Though I do take an opposing stance with regards to the affect of the Noxious Gnash change, and how that relates to flawed job design. I believe that Viper is so deeply flawed that making a seemingly small change like removing a management mechanic has changed the way the job feels in combat drastically. Even if mechanically it seems quite similar the way the job feels to play between launch Viper and current Viper is miles apart. This in and of itself proves that job design is deeply flawed. Making such a seemingly simple change should not have this kind of cascading effect on the way the job feels to play. It's inherently broken design, and it doesn't apply to just Viper.

[CKNovel]

Again, it's the exact same thing gameplay wise

This is like saying an automatic car and a manual car drives the same, depending on the level of depth it's true until it's false.
You're driving on the same road, respecting the same rules, the wheels is the same, to accelerate and brakes it's the same...

But when you need to shift gear that's where the difference kicks in.
And that's the criticism, part of the Viper community enjoyed the charm of manual cars and were suddenly forced to drive automatic cars.

You can think that Viper is too simple, but I admire the simplicity.

[Carighan]

This is like saying an automatic car and a manual car drives the same, depending on the level of depth it's true until it's false.

Not really, but there's an interesting point in there: It's more like comparing a clutch-car to a tiptronic car. After a small~moderate amount of time, neither requires active brain resources, however the tiptronic one did not from the start.

And that in fact is my point. People keep talking about this "decision that was lost". Which... it wasn't? Do you think I decide to save by Lance Charge in 2:1 ratio for the even and odd bursts? Do you think I decide to hold two cards for the burst and then roll over into the next draw?

I only needed to do that when initially picking the job up. Then, it was baked into the same braindead motion I do during gameplay, and it does not matter (or rather, not to a degree where it is noteworthy from a design POV) whether that gameplay is 1-2-3-1-2-3, 1-2-3-4-5-6 or 1-1-1-1-1-1. None of these sequences involve any active thinking. And importantly, no decisions. In fact, the lack of actual decisionmaking during gameplay on non-Dancer jobs is the very flaw of the entire FFXIV combat system. Jobs are all static rotations. Viper went from one static rotation to another static rotation. Hence, beyond the very first fresh steps with the job, the experience of playing it is the exact same, your hands go through learned motions with your brain disconnected from this part, fully focused on the boss mechanics and maybe on chatting with your friends.

Now it's mindless from the outset, feels more like a Dancer like rotation now with alternating waltzes, not the image I want when playing a snake inspired hunter.

It's funny that you bring up Dancer, the only non-static job in the game right now (including pre-change Viper). Sure, maybe proc-based gameplay feels mindless to you - after all it's just reactive, hit the button that glows.
But it should be understandable that a non-proc-based (like every single other job including the healers and tanks) static rotation gameplay is just as braindead to other players, because once your muscle memory takes over, you quite genuinely no longer need to think about it. It's all on full auto.
It could be reduced into a single long macro if that could viably be done with game mechanics; and hence we have the recent proliferation of autocombos in both PvP and PvE, further showcasing how on-rails the entire combat system of ~all jobs actually is.

Now don't get me wrong: I dislike the Viper changes. Maybe that wasn't clear. But I don't dislike it because it removed Noxious Gash, rather because it did not remove just about everything else, ripping out the current core structure and putting something with an actual identity centered around this left/right combo system into place - which sounds like a cool idea, but then you see the current implementation, sigh, yawn, and go back to not paying attention.

That they changed something was good. But they changed something that didn't need changing (or like I said, from my perspective it makes 0 difference so I also don't truly care that they changed it), while leaving the pile of stuff that desperately needs to be replaced to give Viper an identity of its own and make it "cool" to play alone. It really shows that they had no further idea behind the job than "Oh yeah it sticks two 1H swords together", and did not do any brainstorming how to translate that into a gameplay system that feels interesting.

[LynxDubh]

It's funny that you bring up Dancer, the only non-static job in the game right now (including pre-change Viper). Sure, maybe proc-based gameplay feels mindless to you - after all it's just reactive, hit the button that glows.
But it should be understandable that a non-proc-based (like every single other job including the healers and tanks) static rotation gameplay is just as braindead to other players, because once your muscle memory takes over, you quite genuinely no longer need to think about it. It's all on full auto.
It could be reduced into a single long macro if that could viably be done with game mechanics; and hence we have the recent proliferation of autocombos in both PvP and PvE, further showcasing how on-rails the entire combat system of ~all jobs actually is.

Now don't get me wrong: I dislike the Viper changes. Maybe that wasn't clear. But I don't dislike it because it removed Noxious Gash, rather because it did not remove just about everything else, ripping out the current core structure and putting something with an actual identity centered around this left/right combo system into place - which sounds like a cool idea, but then you see the current implementation, sigh, yawn, and go back to not paying attention.

That they changed something was good. But they changed something that didn't need changing (or like I said, from my perspective it makes 0 difference so I also don't truly care that they changed it), while leaving the pile of stuff that desperately needs to be replaced to give Viper an identity of its own and make it "cool" to play alone. It really shows that they had no further idea behind the job than "Oh yeah it sticks two 1H swords together", and did not do any brainstorming how to translate that into a gameplay system that feels interesting.

My main and most practiced DPS is DNC. I mainly brought up the concept of a Dancer doing a very rehearsed waltz as part of the rotation, so I apologize if I made an obtuse analogy. I more meant that doing the steps of a cha cha or something in my rotation would fit the fantasy of a Dancer more than the DNC we actually have in game.

I'd have quit this game if they gave DNC the same treatment that they did to Viper, making it more rigid in its base rotation. It's bad enough that the DNC burst is now so rigid after what DT added.

But yeah I wish the fantasy of a snake hunter matched up with the gameplay of the job too. They even left the idea of it being a variable weapon/stance based class on the cutting room floor it seems. We could have had a melee that goes from 1H 2S faster strikes stance to the 2H heavier hitting slower gcd stance or something.

[CKNovel]

And that in fact is my point. People keep talking about this "decision that was lost". Which... it wasn't? Do you think I decide to save by Lance Charge in 2:1 ratio for the even and odd bursts? Do you think I decide to hold two cards for the burst and then roll over into the next draw?

You're comparing apples and oranges here.
Dreadwinder is in the filler, not the burst like Lance charge and cards you mentioned.

You had to think about Dreadwinder usage and plan ahead, now you don't. You just make sure you don't overcap on Rattling coil.
Everyone had their own rules and priority when it came to its usage, because as long as you weren't dropping Noxious gash, there wasn't a bad solution.