Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Cahcuia tells us that the Endless are just copies and there is evidence this is true. There are two Otises and Erenville is under the impression he will reunite with his mom in the aetherial sea.

However, we are also told that the Endless are made from memory aether and there is also evidence of this. We watch memories separated from souls in Origenics and are told the memory aether is sent to Living Memory. The people evaporate in what looks like memory aether when we turn off the servers. They shouldn't require lifeforce to exist if they are just digital copies of memories and not memory aether. Also, the regulators are extracting memories, so that sounds more like they are removing memory aether, rather than just copying memories.

So which is it? If it's the former then all that's being preserved is data and data shouldn't require lifeforce to maintain. If it's the latter, then we dissipated the one and only version of these people that exists, so they won't get the slower disintegration in the aetherial sea that allows them to watch over friends and family and wait for them, so why would Erenville expect to see his mother there?

[NegativeS]

If the Endless are just projections, then it makes sense that they disappear when the terminals shut off. If they are comprised of memory aether, then that means they don't have full souls or fully corporeal forms, which likely can't keep themselves together without the active processes of the Terminals. I believe it's said that Sphene needs souls specifically because using them allows the Endless to be given form without turning them into full living beings that require all the things that life needs, although I can't fully remember--half checked out by this point in the story.

As for storage, it's possible that preserving the memory aether is an active process, as it's not really meant to be separate from the soul until it's in the aetherial sea. Without the active processes of the terminals, the aether probably breaks down into its less-structured constituents. Don't ask me if it's possible to copy memory aether or commit the information in it to something like a tomestone... probably beyond Everkeep's technology to do so. If they could pick apart the contents of memory and souls, then there wouldn't be anything stopping them from manufacturing their own without needing to commit multi-genocide across the reflections.

If it's the latter, then we dissipated the one and only version of these people that exists, so they won't get the slower disintegration in the aetherial sea that allows them to watch over friends and family and wait for them, so why would Erenville expect to see his mother there?

Probably just him being somber and hopeful, I doubt Erenville is going to completely pick apart the machinations of Etheirys' afterlife moments after 'killing' his mother.

We don't fully know how death and rebirth works in the world, though, so maybe there's a chance that her soul and her memories find each other again, or perhaps her memories will be given form in the aetherial sea after we shut off the terminals. We see Moenbryda in the Aitiascope even though she supposedly gave all that was her toward the annihilation of what's-his-name Ascian, and she ended up down there just fine. Magic works in mysterious ways.

[Nitelancer]

If they could pick apart the contents of memory and souls, then there wouldn't be anything stopping them from manufacturing their own without needing to commit multi-genocide across the reflections.

I think the endless are supposed to be based on the happiest memories of the person or the happiest version of themselves. If that’s true, then they must be able to distinguish between the good and bad memories contained in the aether.

[EusisLandale]

Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Probably just him being somber and hopeful, I doubt Erenville is going to completely pick apart the machinations of Etheirys' afterlife moments after 'killing' his mother.

We don't fully know how death and rebirth works in the world, though, so maybe there's a chance that her soul and her memories find each other again, or perhaps her memories will be given form in the aetherial sea after we shut off the terminals. We see Moenbryda in the Aitiascope even though she supposedly gave all that was her toward the annihilation of what's-his-name Ascian, and she ended up down there just fine. Magic works in mysterious ways.

I refuse to believe a Sharlayan scholar simply forgot how the afterlife works in regards to his mother. Like you've pointed out the Sharalyans have dug multiple holes to the underworld and have studied it. Given the purpose of the aetherial sea is to wash away memories, sending memories to the aetherial sea with no soul should be like dropping them in a vat of acid. Not to mention, these memories are on an entirely different shard, if they did return to the aetherial sea, they should return to THAT aetherial sea and even if those memories could rejoin with Cahcuia's soul, her soul is likely in a soul cell back on the Source. Given Cahcuia states multiple times that they are just copies as the justification of why it's okay to erase them and we meet a copy of Otis, I'd be inclined to believe that the Endless are copies.

EXCEPT!

They show us the process and the memory aether is extracted and they state they are made of memory aether.

That's like telling me, a machine scanned you and I'm interacting with a virtual copy of you and then showing me them surgically removing your brain and sticking it in the machine. That's a massive distinction that needs to be clarified and there is evidence of both.

Also, Moenbryda gave up her lifeforce to help destroy the Ascian, same thing Papalymo did to imprison Shinryu. Using up all your lifeforce kills you, but it doesn't destroy your soul. There was nothing unexpected by their presence in the aetherial sea.

If a story doesn't have consistent rules, then there is no point to the story. If anything can happen at anytime, might as well skip to the combat with a 'kill, cause bad.'

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

I find it interesting that multiple people have come to the conclusion a Sharlayan scholar is just delusional about how the afterlife works and we've deleted the one and only copy of thousands of people denying them the slow fade that happens in the afterlife that would allow them to reconnect with their loved ones. Yikes. I'd like to remind you all, we kinda twisted his arm and made him delete his mom...are we sure we're the good guys?

[ElHeggunte]

Why can't it be a little of both? You could surmise that the cleansed soul aether gives them physical form. It's what makes up their tangible body. The memory aether is what then gives them their physical appearance and, err, memories.

The very fact that Otis can exist in two different forms simultaneously is proof enough that the Living Memory is making a copy of the memory aether instead of just storing the original wholesale. If it didn't, then Endless!Otis wouldn't exist. If Endless!Otis exists, then Robotis wouldn't.

[EusisLandale]

I find it interesting that multiple people have come to the conclusion a Sharlayan scholar is just delusional about how the afterlife works

1. He's not a scholar. He's the guy who just goes and gets things for them.
2. Being intelligent doesn't prevent grief, nor its processes.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Why can't it be a little of both? You could surmise that the cleansed soul aether gives them physical form. It's what makes up their tangible body. The memory aether is what then gives them their physical appearance and, err, memories.

The very fact that Otis can exist in two different forms simultaneously is proof enough that the Living Memory is making a copy of the memory aether instead of just storing the original wholesale. If it didn't, then Endless!Otis wouldn't exist. If Endless!Otis exists, then Robotis wouldn't.

Yes. That's the problem. What you're describing requires the same aether to be in two places. It makes sense if Endless Otis is a digital copy of real Otis from an earlier time, I get that. It'd also make sense if the Endless are the memory aether of the dead held together by lifeforce. I get that.

But they can't be both. But the game TELLS us they are the former, but SHOWS us the latter as the process of their creation.

1. He's not a scholar. He's the guy who just goes and gets things for them.
2. Being intelligent doesn't prevent grief, nor its processes.

Gleaners are scholars too. He states that when he's attempting to get information from a Forum member as we're listening on as frogs. I can find the scene and take a picture for you if you don't believe me. Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment, he seems enthused. And again, half the evidence points to him possibly being right and the other half points to him being incorrect. I'm curious why people are so quick to discard the parts suggesting he's right given it was how we justified deleting thousands of people.

"Oh no, what Cahcuia said directly multiple times was incorrect, this was actually the only version of these people and they are now gone forever. Oh well."

[Carin-Eri]

I think the endless are supposed to be based on the happiest memories of the person or the happiest version of themselves. If that’s true, then they must be able to distinguish between the good and bad memories contained in the aether.

That's quite tragic in a sense, if you look into it a little more deeply. Some of those Endless were children. This implies that those Endless either died AS children or had miserable adult lives and their only happy memories were those from when they were children.

[EusisLandale]

Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment,

You're aware that the first stage of grief is generally considered denial right?
"I didn't just delete the last thing that made my mom her. She'll be in the afterlife waiting for me."