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  1. #41
    Player
    NishaSetsuya's Avatar
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    Aug 2021
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    68
    Character
    Nisha Dovah'glaedr
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon View Post

    Gleaners are scholars too. He states that when he's attempting to get information from a Forum member as we're listening on as frogs. I can find the scene and take a picture for you if you don't believe me. Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment, he seems enthused. And again, half the evidence points to him possibly being right and the other half points to him being incorrect. I'm curious why people are so quick to discard the parts suggesting he's right given it was how we justified deleting thousands of people.

    "Oh no, what Cahcuia said directly multiple times was incorrect, this was actually the only version of these people and they are now gone forever. Oh well."

    His domain of expertise is nature and fauna, that why he is a gleaner. All the scholar in sharlayan have a domain of expertise not every one of them is knowledgable about aetherology.

    Also i feel like those past expansion been about some of the stage of grief

    Shadowbringer enial and Anger
    Endwalker : Bargaining and depression
    Dawntrail : Testing and Acceptance
    (That my how interpretation of thing in relation to their last dungeon and zone. Similar but different)
    (3)
    Last edited by NishaSetsuya; 07-28-2024 at 02:50 AM.

  2. #42
    Player
    Lady_Silvermoon's Avatar
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    Jul 2023
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    416
    Character
    Kasari Silvermoon
    World
    Seraph
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by NishaSetsuya View Post
    His domain of expertise is nature and fauna, that why he is a gleaner. All the scholar in sharlayan have a domain of expertise not every one of them is knowledgable about aetherology.

    Also i feel like those past expansion been about some of the stage of grief

    Shadowbringer enial and Anger
    Endwalker : Bargaining and depression
    Dawntrail : Testing and Acceptance
    (That my how interpretation of thing in relation to their last dungeon and zone. Similar but different)
    Erenville was in the room when Oblivion explains what happens to the souls of people wearing regulators. We are arguing if he's too dumb to understand something explained to him when it was explained to us.

    Let me put it this way, do you believe the writers intentionally had him mistaken about the location of his mother's soul in a post-credit scene of what you believe is the Testing and Acceptance expansion?

    If he's supposed to be at Acceptance, which I agree given he's saying this with a big smile on his face, why are people claiming he's just in Denial?
    (1)

  3. #43
    Player
    Nitelancer's Avatar
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    Jan 2014
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    147
    Character
    Ponder Nite
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?



    (3)

  4. #44
    Player
    Striker44's Avatar
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    Jan 2022
    Location
    Uldah
    Posts
    1,068
    Character
    Elmind Exilus
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon View Post
    If he's supposed to be at Acceptance, which I agree given he's saying this with a big smile on his face, why are people claiming he's just in Denial?
    Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.
    (0)

  5. #45
    Player
    KylePearlsand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    351
    Character
    Khona'ra Nhaja
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by EusisLandale View Post
    Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

    As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.
    Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.
    (8)
    Hello, if you're reading this, then you should know this isn't part of the post.

  6. #46
    Player
    Lady_Silvermoon's Avatar
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    Jul 2023
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    416
    Character
    Kasari Silvermoon
    World
    Seraph
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Striker44 View Post
    Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.
    What did we have to test and accept? That was everyone else's mom being deleted, not ours. So basically, you want me to accept a character that has been consistently intelligent and rational has fallen into complete delusion with a big grin on his face in a post-credit scene because he's so sad?

    I refuse. I think what happened is in this conflated and contradictory lore they've crafted it's the writers who aren't sure where Cahcuia is.

    Quote Originally Posted by KylePearlsand View Post
    Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.
    The players are doing more work than the writers to dehumanize the Endless to make the final zone work. The only tampering we've been told about is that Sphene was programmed to preserve the Endless, that's it. The system setting up reunions doesn't mean that it's been tampering with the minds of all the Endless. If that were the case, then Cahcuia shouldn't be able to exist in the way she does. She's an Endless that hates being an Endless. That finds a way to exist outside the system and lead a rebellion against it. And pushes for the destruction of the system she's in. If the system was altering memories to make people happy, it did a terrible job given Cahcuia is a literal rebel leader. Also, Krile's parents have been looking for ways to delete themselves and remember who Krile is and giving her up seemed like a pretty painful memory for them. Those examples, plus Otis seem to suggest the Endless have their full minds intact. It's the living people of Alexandria who have their memories manipulated to spare them grief.
    (4)

  7. #47
    Player
    LilimoLimomo's Avatar
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    Jul 2023
    Location
    Windurst
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    1,134
    Character
    Lilimo Limomo
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitelancer View Post
    It occurred to me that there is an instance of cloning of someone in the lore; Pupu clones Hildibrand with his spaceship, lol. The clones don't require some seem to require any soul or memory aether (at least I don't remember that coming up), but they have all the characteristics and personality of the person. Doesn't it throw a wrench into explanation of requiring aether to make the endless if not even physical clones require it?
    With respect, you're making quite a few assumptions here. We don't know anything about the material requirements for Pupu's cloning, nor do we even know if the clones have souls.

    What we do know is that there is something materially different between the original and the clones, as Pupu's saucer has a function that "deletes" clones but not originals. All in all, I don't think we have enough information to determine anything based on Pupu's extraterrestrial technology.

    Just to add, there are two other instances of cloning in the game that I can think of:
    - the Allagans did lots of cloning; Unei, Doga, Amon, etc
    - Emperor Solus had a batch of cloned bodies (though presumably they lacked souls)
    (3)

  8. #48
    Player
    ConantSivrha's Avatar
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    Oct 2023
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    128
    Character
    Conant Sivrha
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Regarding Erenville believing he’ll meet Cahciua in the Aetherial Sea:

    On the surface, there appear to be two problems with this. Firstly, because the memories of Cahciua’s original soul were extracted and sent to Living Memory, and we deleted everyone in Living Memory, Cahciua presumably wouldn’t remember Erenville even if they did meet in the Aetherial Sea. Second, because the souls of the dead are extracted and turned into soul cells for use by other people, Cahciua’s original soul might not be in the Aetherial Sea in the first place.

    The first problem might already have an answer. In Endwalker, when we meet Emet Selch and Hythlodaeus again in Ultima Thule, they remember their erased memories of the events that took place in Elpis. If the reason why was ever directly and explicitly confirmed, I don’t remember it, but I thought the implication was that the Aetherial Sea actually restores artificially erased memories, before it erases all of them itself…for whatever reason.

    The second problem is more mysterious to me. Did we ever find out whether souls are infinitely “reusable” for the Alexandrians’ purposes?

    As in: an Alexandrian who has never “died” before gets into an accident and “dies”. Their original soul leaves their body, goes to Origenics for processing, and is replaced with a new one from a soul cell. At some later point, this Alexandrian dies for real (perhaps of old age or illness, or perhaps in an accident when they have no extra soul cells). Does their current soul also get reprocessed into a new soul cell? Does it continue like this in perpetuity?

    If it does, this would imply that the number of soul cells in circulation just keeps growing forever. Soul cells seem to be scarce to some extent, however, since they’re only given to those who are considered useful…but it also seems like people have grown accustomed to always having soul cells to ensure their continued existence. I assumed, at one point, that souls can only be turned into soul cells one time each, and “using” them would result in the soul being destroyed or returned to the Aetherial Sea, but I don’t think there’s direct evidence to support this.

    Was the scarcity and rationing system of soul cells introduced with Zoraal Ja? Has their population just grown so much that the number of current living people is close to the total number of people who died after the introduction of regulators and soul cells?
    (0)

  9. #49
    Player
    Havenchild's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    990
    Character
    Avalen Koma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon View Post
    Never in this game's history has there been a single example of a soul being copied. If that ever becomes possible, they might as well just set their afterlife lore on fire, cause they are done.
    I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion for Robo-Otis and Endless Otis.

    Endless Otis remembers up to he becomes Robo Otis. Endless Otis is still "living" as an Endless though post death for hundreds of years?
    Robo Otis remembers everything to present, again hundreds of years.

    Each have distinct memories post experiment.

    If Endless are made from Memories of a Soul, but according to Robo Otis, they merged his soul with the armor, then they had to have duplicated his soul somehow. I don't believe given the context we have, there is any other explanation.
    (2)

  10. #50
    Player
    Lady_Silvermoon's Avatar
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    Jul 2023
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    Character
    Kasari Silvermoon
    World
    Seraph
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Havenchild View Post
    I'm not sure how you can come to another conclusion for Robo-Otis and Endless Otis.

    Endless Otis remembers up to he becomes Robo Otis. Endless Otis is still "living" as an Endless though post death for hundreds of years?
    Robo Otis remembers everything to present, again hundreds of years.

    Each have distinct memories post experiment.

    If Endless are made from Memories of a Soul, but according to Robo Otis, they merged his soul with the armor, then they had to have duplicated his soul somehow. I don't believe given the context we have, there is any other explanation.
    Memory aether can be extracted from a soul. And it's said that the Endless are made of memory aether. However, regulators have to have the ability to hold a digital copy of memories in order to stamp your memories on top after it uses a soul cell to revive you. It can't be using your memory aether because that's not removed from your soul until after you die and your soul is processed in Origenics.

    What the two Otises prove is that they have the ability to copy memories and create an Endless without extracting a person's memory aether. However, we're also told and shown that they *do* extract the memory aether.

    If they had the ability to copy souls, then nothing they were doing would make sense. There would be no reason to attack the source, they could just dupe a bunch of souls. There would be no reason to exchange souls as currency, they could just dupe a bunch and everyone could be fully stocked the entire time. Actually, there would be no point in regulators, just give each person multiple copies of their own soul to use when they die and then there is no reason to stamp their memories on top as there is no threat of other personalities overpowering the primary one.
    (2)

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