Is this a plothole? Question about the Endless

[Steelpapercranes]

I refuse to believe a Sharlayan scholar simply forgot how the afterlife works in regards to his mother. Like you've pointed out the Sharalyans have dug multiple holes to the underworld and have studied it. Given the purpose of the aetherial sea is to wash away memories, sending memories to the aetherial sea with no soul should be like dropping them in a vat of acid. Not to mention, these memories are on an entirely different shard, if they did return to the aetherial sea, they should return to THAT aetherial sea and even if those memories could rejoin with Cahcuia's soul, her soul is likely in a soul cell back on the Source. Given Cahcuia states multiple times that they are just copies as the justification of why it's okay to erase them and we meet a copy of Otis, I'd be inclined to believe that the Endless are copies.

EXCEPT!

They show us the process and the memory aether is extracted and they state they are made of memory aether.

That's like telling me, a machine scanned you and I'm interacting with a virtual copy of you and then showing me them surgically removing your brain and sticking it in the machine. That's a massive distinction that needs to be clarified and there is evidence of both.

Also, Moenbryda gave up her lifeforce to help destroy the Ascian, same thing Papalymo did to imprison Shinryu. Using up all your lifeforce kills you, but it doesn't destroy your soul. There was nothing unexpected by their presence in the aetherial sea.

If a story doesn't have consistent rules, then there is no point to the story. If anything can happen at anytime, might as well skip to the combat with a 'kill, cause bad.'



I find it interesting that multiple people have come to the conclusion a Sharlayan scholar is just delusional about how the afterlife works and we've deleted the one and only copy of thousands of people denying them the slow fade that happens in the afterlife that would allow them to reconnect with their loved ones. Yikes. I'd like to remind you all, we kinda twisted his arm and made him delete his mom...are we sure we're the good guys?

I'll be honest, a lot of people are coping. And I don't blame them! This part of MSQ was SO rushed. You're completely right: they directly tell us it's just a copy multiple times, and also directly show us memory aether being physically removed from a corpse and show all the endless dissolving into the same aether when we delete/kill them. It's completely unambiguous both times and also directly contradictory. No one is gonna be happy trying to talk about this one, lol.

[Chrome_Aerial]

"I believe it's said that Sphene needs souls specifically because using them allows the Endless to be given form without turning them into full living beings that require all the things that life needs, although I can't fully remember--half checked out by this point in the story."

this specific part shows a big plothole tbh. if memory souls need soul eather to sustain form. then WHY do they even seperate these 2 to begin with? why even remove the memory aether from soul aether if memory aether NEEDS soul aether to give form to the person the memory belongs to?
while i love the disturbing concept of this whole alexandria, regulator and soul harvesting... i think the devs havent really given it much thought.

the story is mediocre regardless. i believe they focused a little too much on making duties fun and having pretty graphics. funding cut on the writers? idk but the story feels meh at best.
BUT given its the buildingblock of a new story i am very well interested to see where this is going and if it can reach ShB levels on greatness.

but on the topic at hand. there are a few things that seem odd and show the writers haven't really thought out the entire process of things.
another good example of that is Vanguard honestly.
Sphene cudn't open the gate in skydeep cenote without the key. but pretty sure zoraal ja hasn't opened the gate with the key cause for 1: this gate leads to living memory, and 2: if he did open the gate, why was it closed again when we went there?
whats the point of getting alexandria Fusing into yasulani if you got a ready to go build gate where you can send hundreds if not thousands of robots trough? (not all at the same time but given it remote location i'd assume the invasion would start in yak'tel)
yet the invasion starts after the dome appears in yasulani and near shaaloani and Vanguard is Build half IN the dome and half OUT the dome. how? thought they had no way of going out of the dome? that was the whole purpose of the dome... a protection bubble.

[EusisLandale]

Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

[Rookie1]

Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

there's another possibility here...when someone dies their memory is cut and pasted out of everybody that knew them. There is a possibility that the endless otis we meet is just a simulation based on everyone else's memory of otis. endless otis doesn't have original otis' memories

[KylePearlsand]

Otis is noted to be an odd case in story, given that he was basically the first test subject for the process. Robot-Otis is clearly Otis's Soul+Memory Aethers, so (Proto?)Endless-Otis can safely be assumed to be a copy of Otis's Memory Aether data pushed into some blank Aether rather than the original after being essentially surgically separated like later Endless.

As for Erenville and his mother, he's just being hopeful even though the whole process of making an Endless involves an accelerated version of the natural process of things where the Soul Aether is reborn while the Memory Aether is lost, outside of deeply traumatic events that end up "scarring" the Soul Aether like witnessing an apocalypse.

Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Simple - the expansion is about "Testing and Acceptance" for us (the players behind the 4th wall). For Erenville in the game at that moment, he's just experienced the loss and is in denial.

What did we have to test and accept? That was everyone else's mom being deleted, not ours. So basically, you want me to accept a character that has been consistently intelligent and rational has fallen into complete delusion with a big grin on his face in a post-credit scene because he's so sad?

I refuse. I think what happened is in this conflated and contradictory lore they've crafted it's the writers who aren't sure where Cahcuia is.

Another notable detail about Otis is he seems to clearly remember the bad memories. Seeing the actress playing Sphene "dead" triggered what seemed to be PTSD and a flashback to that memory. This is a trait other endless don't seem to share as the system intentionally sets them up to live their happiest memories and seemingly deletes the bad to set up those situations.

The players are doing more work than the writers to dehumanize the Endless to make the final zone work. The only tampering we've been told about is that Sphene was programmed to preserve the Endless, that's it. The system setting up reunions doesn't mean that it's been tampering with the minds of all the Endless. If that were the case, then Cahcuia shouldn't be able to exist in the way she does. She's an Endless that hates being an Endless. That finds a way to exist outside the system and lead a rebellion against it. And pushes for the destruction of the system she's in. If the system was altering memories to make people happy, it did a terrible job given Cahcuia is a literal rebel leader. Also, Krile's parents have been looking for ways to delete themselves and remember who Krile is and giving her up seemed like a pretty painful memory for them. Those examples, plus Otis seem to suggest the Endless have their full minds intact. It's the living people of Alexandria who have their memories manipulated to spare them grief.

[ElHeggunte]

Why can't it be a little of both? You could surmise that the cleansed soul aether gives them physical form. It's what makes up their tangible body. The memory aether is what then gives them their physical appearance and, err, memories.

The very fact that Otis can exist in two different forms simultaneously is proof enough that the Living Memory is making a copy of the memory aether instead of just storing the original wholesale. If it didn't, then Endless!Otis wouldn't exist. If Endless!Otis exists, then Robotis wouldn't.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Why can't it be a little of both? You could surmise that the cleansed soul aether gives them physical form. It's what makes up their tangible body. The memory aether is what then gives them their physical appearance and, err, memories.

The very fact that Otis can exist in two different forms simultaneously is proof enough that the Living Memory is making a copy of the memory aether instead of just storing the original wholesale. If it didn't, then Endless!Otis wouldn't exist. If Endless!Otis exists, then Robotis wouldn't.

Yes. That's the problem. What you're describing requires the same aether to be in two places. It makes sense if Endless Otis is a digital copy of real Otis from an earlier time, I get that. It'd also make sense if the Endless are the memory aether of the dead held together by lifeforce. I get that.

But they can't be both. But the game TELLS us they are the former, but SHOWS us the latter as the process of their creation.

1. He's not a scholar. He's the guy who just goes and gets things for them.
2. Being intelligent doesn't prevent grief, nor its processes.

Gleaners are scholars too. He states that when he's attempting to get information from a Forum member as we're listening on as frogs. I can find the scene and take a picture for you if you don't believe me. Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment, he seems enthused. And again, half the evidence points to him possibly being right and the other half points to him being incorrect. I'm curious why people are so quick to discard the parts suggesting he's right given it was how we justified deleting thousands of people.

"Oh no, what Cahcuia said directly multiple times was incorrect, this was actually the only version of these people and they are now gone forever. Oh well."

[EusisLandale]

Grief doesn't make you forget how your afterlife works. And he doesn't seem sad in that moment,

You're aware that the first stage of grief is generally considered denial right?
"I didn't just delete the last thing that made my mom her. She'll be in the afterlife waiting for me."

[LilimoLimomo]

You're aware that the first stage of grief is generally considered denial right?

This is a mild tangent, but for what it's worth, the "Five Stages of Grief" is a (popular) myth. It's one of those things that sounds plausible enough that people have just run with it for decades, despite the fact that there has never been a sound body of scientific data that supports the theory. On the contrary, the data that has been gathered on the subject broadly contradicts the theory.